We have been doing a wintertime study of the end times. The bible is not just historical, but of our nearing future. The day of judgement is fast approaching, and to those that do not know him, it will seem like a thief in the night, but to those that know him, it is apparent. Either way, every knee will bow and confess that he is the Lord Jesus Christ.
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you may also consider some works that supplement the bible; the works of scholars, not cranks. Much of our modern doctrine, practices, and beliefs come from Thomas Aquinas, who wrote Summa Theolocia which is the cornerstone of modern christian practice. A farther step into apologetic studies will lead you to C.S. Lewis. His works including The Problem Of Pain, Mere Christianity, and the Great Divide are a great extension of the childhood books which include the classic Screwtape Letters. Lewis was likely the greatest apologetic mind of the 20th century. Of course Lewis also did the Lion, Witch, Wardrobe series of books. A contemporary of Lewis was Tolkien, who did the ever popular works of the Hobbitt series. Lewis had feet in both traditional apologetic writings and fantasy. Both Lewis and Tolkien strove to bring christian teachings to the masses via stories of fantasy. If you re-read or re-watch the stories of Lewis or Tolkien with that in mind, the message should be obvious. After that you can expand into the Gita, and perhaps (gasp) even the Koran. All of these writings attempt to pave a way to man's understanding of God. Sort of like the Life of Pi. Have a good journey.
Hmmmm i will need to think about that one a bit seabolt... That comment is a bit of a stretch for me... But to each his own. In the tolkien series, the savior of all is man..... And involves so many sub stories of men working in concert with evil. Like the redemption of the ghosts and their souls that had been cursed by the former king. I see no relation of those sort of thoughts to the Word of God. Everything in the bible offers redemption only through our Lord Jesus Christ. But the tolkien series is a good fantasy writing of good vs evil, but in my opinion, that is all. No disrespect intended in any way.
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I have spent 40 years as a student of the Bible and a teacher of the Bible and I can empathize with the OP. I don't know any way around some of the difficulties he is encountering. I think that is a fairly universal experience. I will only offers a couple of observations and hints.
1. Each book of the Bible was written with a specific readership in mind. These readers differ in culture, historical period and current situation at the time it was written. Many of these are alien to us today, so this contributes to the difficulty. Much of the difficulty in understanding goes away once we understand who wrote it, to whom it was written and why it was written.
2. An English translation that reads like we think, is also a big help. So, try and find one that is easy to read for you. That varies from individual to individual.
3. If a person is a Christian and is interested in a closer relationship with Jesus, the New Testament is the place to start. Here is the way I suggest to folks starting out;
A. Start with the Gospel of Mark, this is a short bare bones account of the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus. This will give you a command of the facts pretty quick.
B. Next go to the Gospel of John, this offers the same basic facts as Mark, but adds why Jesus did what he did and said what he said.
C. The Book of Acts records the jump the faith made from a Jewish sect to a Gentile faith. Much of the problems and difficulties the early church encountered are still very much with us in today's American churches.
D. The letters of Paul are interesting and helpful, but he wrote them to specific churches to address specific problem and/or concerns and you need to know that background to understand the letter in any meaningful way.
E. The letters of John and Peter are the "Pastoral Letters" that are written to help folks live the Christian faith. They are more generic and less specific that the letters of Paul.
D. Don't mess with the Book of Revelation until you have a solid understanding of the rest of the New Testament material. It does not contain a blue print for the future as some would think. The purpose of the writing was to encourage a church which was undergoing intense persecution by the Romans. The existing church leadership was virtually wiped out and the church moral was very very low. John was writing from exile on the island of Patmos and wanted to assure the Christians that despite the awful things there were experiencing, they should hold fast because God would win in the end and they would be on the winning side. When folks do not consider this historical context, they can come up some bazar stuff from Revelation.
If you are looking for easy to read commentaries that will give you the history and context, the Daily Study Bible series by William Barclay are as good as any and far better than most. Barclay wrote these for the lay person and not for the scholar and that is a big help.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Both J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were friends and members of the same group of British academic writers (Inklings) and Lewis gives Tolkien much credit for his conversion to Christianity. Tolkein was very much a Christian.
However, I don't see much Christian in Tolkein's Hobbit material. Much of the basic plot is lifted from Germanic/Norse mythology. That is more than a little similarity to Wagner's "Ring trilogy" operas. Tolkein salts his work with lots of Celtic mythology as well.
C.S. Lewis in his Lion, Witch and Wardrobe series is nothing but pure Christian theology wrapped up in a layer of fantasy.
I like Tolkein's writing. When it comes to fantasy he was better than Lewis and he said so.I also think Wagner wrote great music. This is about the only thing on which Adolph Hitler and I agree. I like both German music and food, for they are both heavy stuff. Nothing light and airy about either.
I consider C.S. Lewis to be the premier Christian thinker and writer of the 20th. Century.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 12-30-2013 at 02:29 PM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Some believe that the Bible is not relevant today. May I humbly suggest that today you read Romans 1, starting with verse 16. Paul says that he is not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, then tells you why: it is the POWER of God toward salvation for ALL who believe, first for the Jews, (most of whom rejected him), then for the rest of us. Then read on about the consequences of rejection....it reads like it was ripped from today's newspaper!!! After the Word convinces you that it is not only relevant but eternal, I would read the gospel of John. You understand who Jesus is (I AM!) and learn the most important lesson I believe. That He (as Father, Son and Spirit) is the God of relationships - Him with us, then all of us with each other. Fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom and you have an excellent journey ahead.
Sorry char-gar.... I dont agree with you, but bless you sir for your years of service to the Lord. Revelation is a blue print of the future to the second coming of our lord. If you dont think that, then we will just have to agree to disagree...
AG
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Yep...that is an agree to disagree. I knew it would not be long until somebody disagreed.Originally Posted by AlaskanGuy
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Both of you are correct. The Lord will provide these plagues in succession as repetitive incentives for man to convert to Him before His second coming. There is no implication these plagues would be (are) applied as a group effort. So, at the very end of all the tribulations, every individual will have the same "creed" as having chosen via free will as being IN or OUT (not IN BETWEEN). This is in keeping with what the Lord said via Jesus: "Only the Father knows the time (and place)". Those of you who don't ask the Blessed Virgin for Her help and guidance are throwing away ammo; pray the Rosary often as per Her request (via Fatima)! The last Ex Cathedra that I know of: Mary, Queen of Heaven. ... felix
felix
Prmer old pal...let me tell you a story I heard and then make a point.
There was a fellow who wanted nothing to do with Jesus and spent his nights drinking with his pals. One night, he was walking home skunk drunk and took a short cut across an old abandoned farm and stepped on a rotted board across the old cistern and fell in. As soon as he hit the bottom he was sober. He began to cry out for help but none came. This continued for three days and as a last resort he got down on his knees and pleaded with Jesus to save him and promised he would follow Him ever after. A white light came into the bottom of the cistern and the fellow was lifted up and set on the ground above. He thanked Jesus and told Him, he would help all his drunken pals find Jesus.
Thereafter, he went into town every Saturday night, got one of his old friends drunk, took them for a walk and pushed then into the same cistern.
Now the point: It is very common for people to think their spiritual experience is the only valid one. One has to think like them, and had the same experience to be a true Christian. They consider those who have come by a different path to be inferior, lacking and in general lesser than themselves.
These well meaning people drive folks away from churches by the droves. Folks don't want to go where they will have spiritual judgment heaped on them. The worse kind of pride is spiritual pride and it is a soul killer. Love, grace, understanding and consideration pull people to Jesus. People want to go where they are loved, and Jesus stretched out his arms in love, forgiveness and understanding. People do not want to go where they will be judged and shamed. I fear the judgers will have some "splaining" to done one day.
There are many ways to the Throne of Grace, and each way is lead by Jesus. Lutherans are good Christian folk and so are you. How do I know? Because you want a deeper walk with Jesus and know the way is to learn more about Him through Scripture. You come here asking for help and that is a brave and noble thing to do. You will find what you seek, because you seek it with an open heart and a noble desire.
God bless you in your journey with Jesus.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Felix...I take it you are a Roman Catholic. That is a good thing, by the way. I have lots of good Christian friends that are faithful and practicing Roman Catholics. It isn't my cup of tea, but then again I drink Lapsang Souchow which my wife thinks is putrid.
I have been a part and ministered in many churches from Black Pentecostal to Roman Catholic and most groups in between. I have found fine Christians in them all, with a smattering of jerks in them all as well. I tend to hang out at the Episcopal church these days, because it is my wife's cup of tea, and she is growing in her faith by leaps and bound.
The Rector at our church keeps wanting me to take "Holy Orders" in the Episcopal Church...not going to happen!
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
This has been an interesting read.
I am never one (hopefully) to judge what is right for somebody in the way of christian walks. I have friends in all belief's, the only thing that i do judge is myself, and what is right for me. That is why i just choose to disagree. We can all agree with this one point i am sure, and that is to love thy neighbor....... So that is what I do my best to pratice... I have only the word and the Lord to lean on, and am totally bible based. I can only believe what is written, and believe it to be true. I do not look at the bible as a historical document, but believe that it is the living word of God.
Bless you all in your understanding...
AG
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Char-gar Me thinks star wars was taken from J.R.R. Tolkien stuff, and is THE battle between good and bad, in a scifi way. Actually, much is taken from (IMHO) non-religious material. I found Ben Haden, McGee and others to give a very good audio Biblical overview in greatly different manners. Haden's approach is 'what are you doing in your life' while McGee is 'through the Bible in a year' approach. John McAurthur has many good Bible theology explanations.
Whatever!
"I fear the judgers will have some "splaining" to done one day."
Paul was a "judger." He was clear that churches are to judge and cleanse their membership. He also judged churches. We are not to judge the world, that is God's job. For how you judge will come back and bite you in the **** according to the Bible.
"I tend to hang out at the Episcopal church these days..."
I hope and pray it is not one of those Rainbow Churches. The left-wing churches are a Pox. Presbyterian, Episcopal etc selling out to sodomites and not only marrying sodomites, but ordaining practicing sodomites has Paul spinning in his grave.
Well here is your student checking in. I am surprised to see this thread going again. Sometimes I feel like a spiritual child trying to put two and two together and really enjoy everyone's contribution. Lately I've thinking that the bible is like a compass that always points to God. Filled with lessons, advice and guidelines for today and beyond.
I think Paul's judgments of the early churches were done in a way that glorified God. And were used to keep the church God minded. Like someone posted earlier some of our modern churches have turned away from some of the moral issues. What has changed if Gods word remains the same?
I think if Paul would have used his power to glorify himself or to impress others his mission would have been cut short.
Doesn't the Bible have lessons in judgment? In 1 Kings there accounts of kings of Israel that constantly fell short in the eyes of God and did not follow the ways David. People say they can not judge others but it seems like we do it all the time and to good fortune. I'm not sure how to walk this back to biblical judgment but I don't think its a sin to tell an immoral person that what they are doing is wrong IF it can be done in a way that glorifies God. At that point aren't you just a messenger?
Oh great, another thread that makes me spend money.
If someone is about to walk into the path of a freight train would warning them be wrong?
I agree. Over the years to many have had there fingers in it changeing things to fit the way they think.
Judgment is something that each of us should do. If you can't judge right for being right and wrong for being wrong, then you're moral compass has a broken needle.
"Judge not lest ye be judged" but they seem to dismiss the rest of the charge in that scripture, and the last words where Jesus calls us to judge:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
The way I see it is that we are clearly directed to take care of our own temple before we start helping others with theirs. No one is perfect, but there are areas where each of us has been through the fire, gotten it right, and are in a position to judge right or wrong, and we should.
That verse has been used to beat Christians into placid indifference. I guess the thinking is "we're all sinners, so I really can't make a judgment call on anything"
Baloney!!! If that's your stance, you are either not listening to God, or are ignoring everything he is teaching you. If God has cleaned you in some way, you are responsible to live and judge life by that cleanliness. If you try to step over what God has cleaned and function in your own power, God will have to clean the area you are standing in, and it will not be a fun process! (Ie, you will be judged by your own standard).
Look folks, we have to call wrong wrong, and right right, and we can because we live in that righteousness.
What happens when you are elevated to the position of a king? or a governor? or a deacon? or a parent? or a moderator on a website? The bible clearly says that these men have been put in authority over you by God. Does the scripture above mean that you are never to correct your child? after all, you did every screwy thing they do, and you got away with most of it. Who are you to judge a 5 year old?
What about if you are a cop? You have sped before for no good reason. Does that mean that you are unable to write a ticket?
What if you see your neighbor getting robbed? You stole something from the convenience store when you were a kid, so you really aren't in any position to judge are you?
I might also point out, that the stanchest supporter of "don't ever judge another person" makes judgments all the time. They just whip that verse out when it get's tough. It's a little bush for cowards to hide behind.
You see if we don't judge as Christians, then wrong is free to run rampant unchecked. We are the only thing standing in the way of a completely evil society, and when I look at the headlines, it's obvious there are a lot of Christians that gave the country away for fear of being judged. They give their children away for fear of being judged. They give their marriages away for fear of being judged. Their jobs, their neighborhoods, their churches.
Sorry, I don't buy it.
Judgment is something that we live in and with, but there is a wrong way and a right way.
Now, I don't judge the tree, I judge the fruit. I never judge someone on hearsay or prejudice. Every man who stands before me gets an equal shake (pun intended).
I make no judgement based on religion, skin color, accent, country of origin, or anything else that has to do with a person's personality. Sometimes an ugly tree drops lots of good apples, and sometimes a tree that looks so perfect it could be in a birmingham dropps fruit that is always only half good, or even rotten.
I judge the tree by the fruit, and if you want to get real technical, I judge every branch of that tree by it's fruit.
Just as the scripture up top says, I am judged by the same standard. Furthermore, I love judgment. I look for it, and I want it. If there is a person out there who sees me struggling to produce in a certain way, I pray that they would judge my branch to be unhealthy, and teach me how to do better before the keeper of the orchard decides to prunes that branch off!!! He wont do it if there are people who are helping me to save the branch and I am making strides to do better! I would much rather have one of you tell me that I am screwing up than suddenly be set upon by a pruning saw. The problem is, there's another person who God has given the eyes to see my plight in hopes that they might come alongside and help me, but since they themselves are imperfect, they refuse to say anything even though they have the answer I need, and know exactly how to help me.
That's a tragedy!
Is any of this sinkin in, or what?
Last edited by MBTcustom; 01-18-2014 at 10:03 AM.
Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.
I have a way looking at things, and it has to do with bearing fruit. I have learned to be a "fruit inspector". The holy spirit lets me know what is wrong and what is right.. The lord sent him on the day of Pentecost as our friend... Use Him to know what is wrong and right. We are all called to do this for ourselves.... Knowing the difference between wrong and right is right there within you.
AG
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