He don't like noboby pullin or pushin a button through his tube...ouch oh man!
Joe[/QUOTE]
Joe, you ain't lived until you had a button pushed in your tube. Been there and done that. You'd be amazed at what will fit in a small bore! Yeah....hurts like hell and makes sweat pop out on your forehead like beads of shot.
"Most folks own at least one old mil-surp and claim pretty decent results.....you think for a minute those barrels got any special treatment? HAR!"
Now, Jumptrap, didn't you ever read "Hell, I was there", by Elmer? He rejected all kinds of barrels at the arsenals, so some inspector work was going on.
You guys is funny. Keep it up. Although that sounds like it may be a problem for some of you...
This has been quite a thread. I've got one of them thar hammerforged 5R remington 308's. I haven't shot anything but condoms in it yet, but boolits are in it's future. It's a 24" with 11.25" twist.
Durn, we musta run them sissy-boys off what with whupping out & all. Or maybe it was the possibility of eat'n sand part they didn't like.
Or maybe it was Jumptrap twiddling around with that sharpened pointy twig of his, askin' iffin it would hurt if inserted up the nose of your pet snake, I dunno ... mebbe?
Or Joe shooting them little bitty groupies inna that there sand bag of his using that Sako 7mm-08 and a chucklin' as he was a spooning up the sand what trickled outta the raggedy single hole in the bag.
Who knows, this here sandbox jest ain't as crowded as it used to be.
Heck, we'se jest a having a bit o' fun, Office, we dunnit mean nothing by it .... Ain't nobody bleedn' as you can plainly see.
We is all reformed and genteel around these parts any more, don't cha know?
<g>
Oldfeller
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
Bass:
"The gain twist was an idea long before Mr Pope and basically went no where at a time lead was the game."
You're right; gain twist is an old idea, and one of many variations that were tried over the years. Another is "choking" the barrel by lapping so that it gets tighter (by a thousandth or two) as the bullet moves towards the muzzle, to maintain the seal; Pope did this, and so did - and a few still do - other makers; the pre-Civil War Model 1841 Harpers Ferry and Remington-made .54 caliber "Mississippi" rifles had grooves that got shallower towards the muzzle (the bore, in this case, stayed constant) for the same purpose. Even wilder variations were tried in the 1800's - and maybe earlier: regressive twist that got SLOWER towards the muzzle, so that as the bullet accelerated, it maintained the same rotation rate as it started with. I doubt that was any conceivable gimmick that was not tried by SOMEONE. One of the old books - by one of the Greeners, I think - described a barrel that was rifled with gain twist near the breech, straight twist in the middle, and then regressive twist in the forward section of the barrel. I dunno WHAT the theory behind that one was!
floodgate
Yeah and that was one of the things that got Elmer sacked from inspectin'. he was doing his job as i recall and rejected a bunch of .50 cal. barrels and held up the shipment of BARs because of faulty innards. But, my point is, those barrels were turned out en masse for the war effort and pressed into service. Years later, folks like us wind up with them and seem satisfied with the way they puke bullets down range. I watched a film of a woman assembling a carbine in a WW2 defense plant......that damned thing was slung together in 2 minutes.....really! I am actually amazed that any of that stuff worked at all....but they had it down to a science. Most troops are ho-hum shots and most shots taken were not well aimed target practice.....had all the bullets shot hit their mark........the entire population of the Earth would have ben annihilated 9000 times over.Originally Posted by waksupi
This discussion on accurate barrels reminds me of most of the other anal subjects that get discussed here. Now fellers, I like everyone of you....really, I do, but some of you have opinions that make my hemmorhoids itch and bleed. And, I am sure, that I do the same for some of you. Most folks spend too much time qouting the so-called experts and oft repeated BS found in magazines.....Precision Shooting being one. PS isn't some tablet handed down by God, to be regarded as Holy Writ......but most readers accept it as such. Then, the lower life forms who read Rifle and Handloader (considered infidels by the PS crowd) actively follow pork belly Venturino and the other resident scribes and swallow everything they spew as words emiited from the Stone of Knowledge.
Well, I am an adherent to empirical data.......you know, **** you've actually seen and done with your bare hands and know for a fact. Applying these principles to gun barrels will prove whether a $79 pipe is inferior to a $400 grooved tube. And, unless you do the whole anal rifle build ******** to compliment that fancy stainless steel downspout you screw on, that high dollar barrel won't shoot any better than the $79 will.
Now, for a fact....I was there......when I went to the Douglas shop, a friend of mine was with me. he managed to bum them out of a .257 caliber SCRAP barrel, dug out the dumpster. He took it home, threaded and chambered it to .257 Ackley and that scrap sporter barrel shot 1/2" groups....I saw that too. I think that barrel had chatter in it or something....anyway, they threw it away.
So lastly, this tome (always accused of penning Tomes) brings me to being in a shop and just listening to the conversations that go on. Some sap comes in wanting a bughole shooter. The 'Expert' behind the counter begins to extol the virtues of certain parts and just what must be done (ka-ching, ka-ching, goes the cash register), calls out all these goddamned tolerances and other associated 'make me look smart' lines of crap and I get nauseated and leave. Meanwhile, back in the 'shop' the sap stands there with that doe in the headlights stare swallowing all that **** and reaching for his Visa and saying.."here take it all, whatever you want, gimme one of them whatever you said guns". So, he gets sold a blueprinted 700 action with a tight necked 6 PPC stainless Hart bull barrel, all mounted in a hand laid fiberglass handle with a 2 ounce Jewell trigger and then $900 worth of glass on top. All this to shoot groundhogs. The dumb bastard who pays can't even shoot the damned thing, but some 'Expert' took his money and reeled his ass in. Makes me sick.
I've got plenty more to add, but may as well hush while I'm able to run.
Great post, Jump. Unless you're shooting in a BenchRest Match, none of us need half inch rifles; what with wind and range and lighting conditions, the real world doesn't give us opportunities to squeeze that degree of accuracy out of a hunting rifle. And the shooter; one person in 50,000 can hold that well, even from a bench.
Yeah, Scrounger, some folks need the confidence afforded by what others think as the best. Who in their right mind would drive a 160 mph car to work everyday, even though work is only 5 miles from home? The car could be a 100,000 dollar Italian job, or even one of Joe's 3,000 dollar chevy 350's. Just how much status is needed for that feel good feeling? I just love it when someone has to BUY his position in life, as opposed to just living his God given class as intended by the Father!. ... felix
Last edited by felix; 08-12-2005 at 11:32 AM.
felix
Way to go, Jump! Couldn't agree more. There are times when the so-called "best" is worth the price, but for the most part, "good enuff" is good enuff. Whether one low-to-medium priced barrel is worth 40% more than another is totally up to the way the buyer feels (not thinks) about it.
Guys,
Barrel quality means different things to different people simply because of how they are or aren't used. I would expect an Elk hunter to have a different opinion than a guy who shot prarie dogs. And a guy that keeps his guns in a safe is going to have a different opinion than a guy that shoots constantly. A guy shooting a 22 Hornet at 1" doesn't have the same outlook at a guy with a 220 Swift shooting 1/4".
A guy that is happy with shooting lead at 1800 fps does not have the same needs as someone who wants to go farther. That's why with cast one guy says heat treat everything over 2000 fps, and another says ACWW is good to 3000 fps. What's the difference? Well it can be lube and this and that, but you better believe barrel figures into that equasion. You can't do it, if it ain't up that tube. But you may not want to either. That's cool.
Better barrels are not imagination. And $40 can make a significant difference in quality. You know if you work with them. Better barrels are made of better steel. And better steel is not only tougher, but more consistent in composition. It machines better to tighter tollerances, including chambers. It often has smaller grain, contains less stresses, but not always. In essence, better steel machined exactly to exactly the same tollerances as cheap steel has a better "chance" to out shoot soft steel under all conditions with a lighter weight barrel. This leaves out barrel wear as a factor.
All I can tell you is 90% of the people that shoot accurate "sporter rifles" (not bench outfits) can shoot 1" down to 1/2" today with minimal to no instruction with boring repetition. If a gun is capable, it shoots for anyone. It shoots today, tomorrow, next year. It shoots factory ammo of several brands and weights, not just one brand, not just one weight, not just handloads. It shoots in a 20 MPH wind. Or at 20 degrees. Or at 120 degrees. It shoots like that with the first 5 shots or through 20. It shoots like that today or 20 years from now. THAT is a better barrel. You just have to want one.
BA, I think it really boils down to more of a need for a barrel quality rather than a desire for one. I desire a Mazeratti (sp), but surely don't need one. Heck, I can't even use one if I did have it. Well, if I lived in LAX and went back and forth weekly to LAS on business, then I MIGHT need one. ... felix
felix
Wow! What a pissin' contest! I'm not wanting to get into one here as I just got out of one on another forum. Just going to put in my two cents worth and stand clear. I've been rebarreling rifles since '69, mostly with Mausers of one sort or another. I've used Star barrels (I think Shaw bought them out), Shaw barrels, Douglas barrels, Shilen barrels, some unknown makes from various sources and A&B barrels. Had a few that only shot ok, 1 1/2 to 2 MOA but most of them shot quite well. With a properly bedded action and good handloads they mostly all ran around MOA or less. The heavy barrel varmint types all ran 1/2 MOA or close to it. This was with all the makes of barrels listed and is about as good as Mauser actions are going to do. There is more to accuracy than just the barrel. I've had quite a few military and factory rifles with original barrels shoot just as well. I’ve shot several of the barrels out, can’t say any give better life as it depends more on the cartridge/load than anything else.
Now if I was building a target/varmint rifle on an action of better accuracy capabilities then I would use the better more expensive of the barrels listed. Accuracy would be 1/2 MOA or better most often. However, I still can’t say the cheaper barrels wouldn’t do as good simply because I never used them in this application. I guess if I was a bench-rester I’d have even a more expensive barrel though as most of us will go with what the winners are using. Whether that is really the best in the context of the barrels and rifles we use for cast boolits is debatable.
My most recent rebarrel was with a Midway special A&B barrel. It was $89 I think and was a pre-threaded and short chambered 24†barrel in 30-06 for the M98. I had a commercial Huskvarna M98 in an old commercial sporter stock that needed a new barrel. Seemed like the thing to do at the time. With 180 gr Hornady SPBTs at 2790 fps it will put 5 into 1 MOA. It will also do it with 190 gr Hornady SPBTs at 2750 fps. Those are the same loads I've worked up to in several other Mauser rebarrels in '06. The Douglas, Shaw and Shilen barrrels all give right at that level of accuracy with those loads. I haven't found any factory rifles in '06 that will do any better with those two loads. Those were the only two condoms tried in that A&B barrel and I doubt there was a hundred of them shot working up to those loads.
Sometime last year someone sent (sorry, can’t remember who but I think it’s one of the parties involved here) me some boolits so I could disprove my RPM theory. Never disproved the RPM theory but I did shoot quite a few boolit groups into 1 to 1 ½ MOA at 1700-1900 fps. That is about right for a good ’06 with a 1-10 twist. The A&B barrel shoots just as good as the $200 Shilen barrel on another ’06 Mauser of mine. Both rifles wear quality 3x9 scopes. Then again I shoot close to the same size groups with the same loads in my M1903A3 Type II Match with its 4 groove Remington ’03 barrel and Lyman iron sights. I’ve yet to have leading with any of them regardless of type of manufacture. The rebarrel before the ’06 was with a Shilen barrel on a M91 Mauser in .35 Remington. Other than a few factory loads (less than a box) it only has had cast boolits through it. It shoots close to MOA (it has a Lyman receiver sight) also with no leading.
Who’s to say which is “best� It sure beats the hell out of me.
Good shootin' guys, Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 08-13-2005 at 07:35 AM.
So far we've established nothing here except some people can express their opinions without profanity and talking about their repoductive orgnans and others can't. I for one figure any mass produced item will be more or less acceptable for it's intended use given a reasonable amount of care in the manfacturing, except the 5% that are just lemons. That being said, I'll refer back to the original question and again state my belief that a cut barrel done right is always superior to a cut barrel done wrong. I will update my opinion on forged barrels and state that I haven't seen any new one in the last 7-8 years, but before that a lot of them had loose spots. Go to it boys.
Bret,
Down get down. I get excited and participate in these threads because they always lead to education for me. Sometimes in ways I don't expect. I realized this topic has never gone very far in a cast forum. Now I think I understand why.
I guess because casters only want to consider those things that they can perform or control. Maybe it isn't the result, just the endless search. Or the bang. Cause guys will go out and spend way more money searching for that magic mold design, or powder, or sizing technique, or stuff for lubes than a new barrel or gun would ever cost.
But that is OK because we never want to say never. And as time passes, we change focus and that sometimes affects our opinions. There is always a first time for someone in the family here. Maybe someone will find themselves at that point in the future where something in this thread might be of benifit. Or they will PM someone for clarification.
No matter what decision they make. Because they started thinkin about it now, it will be the right one for them at that time. Even if the decision is NOT to do it. So it was worth while.
Bass, during my BR circuit days, I have seen too many brand new barrels screwed on and taken off just after three groups while at various the BR smithies on the east coast area. If they don't shoot, they never will, and time should not be wasted on them. I did not have enough sense to buy the take offs at the time, but I could have easily for a song or two. What I have learned is that finding that holy grail is very, very expensive, and that alone is one strong deterrent. That would be a barrel made to a cast boolit spec, such as high lands and slow twist. So, I cheapen the quest and go for a twist that exists with a barrel off of the shelf and take what I get. ... felix
felix
Bass,
A better barrel is not necessarily better steel made on better machinery and better this and better that. I believe it's like if you take a car engine, any brand, and have one that is factory built and then take another one and blueprint everything on it, the blueprinted one will run better. I think that is the same with anything. In other words I'm saying the top barrel makers are "blueprinting" there barrels. Some bad ones do escape them. What I mean is they make sure the bullet traveling with the direction of the grain in the steel, they make the bore as perfect as they can for the entire lenght, they make the chamber concentric to the bore, the threads are straight in their relationship to the barrel and their depth and everything about them is blueprint on. Same with the rest of the barrel features. To have a top shooting rifle the action must also be blueprinted, the bolt, the bedding, the stock, and the sighting arrangement. The factory guns are unblueprinted. Sometimes a really good one comes out of the factory. We've all heard this about cars.."Boy, they built that one right". You know Sako would only make their barrels from Bofors steel and they demanded that the barrel blanks had the direction of the steel grain marked. Word gets around about what steel you want to make a barrel from. The thing is how good a steel are the top barrel makers and the cheapo's really using? Winchester pioneered a new steel for their rifles early on. Wouldn't it be neat to know exacty what quality steel ALL the barrel manufactures really are using, who's to know that maybe the blanks might come from the same places that the cheaper barrel makers buy their's from.
I think it's better for an average fellow here, who has to toil hard for his meager wages. to buy a cheaper barrel and actually get to have a semi-custom rifle then not be able to afford one of the "better barrels" and never have the semi-custom rifle cause it's out of his finacial reach. You know, if someone gets that better barrel and better smith work and he shoots that rifle off the roof of his car, it was wasted money. How you shoot it or use it has alot to do with it too. Even if you're not using it for world match competition and just real real serious varmint shooting, if you have some flimsy ass bipod, and el cheapo scope, and just slam your reloads together, what good is that top name barrel?
You're right about different strokes for different folks thought.
Joe
Felix, do you think it is possible someone could buy a slow twist barrel and, using the proper tools, deepen the groove cuts to "raise" the lands as you specified above? Not me, I haven't the patience and dedication for that, but I think there are a few guys here who would be willing to try it, if it's possible, to get a super barrel.
Yeah, anything is possible, Scrounger, but not likely. Ideally, a barrel should show some gain twist to eliminate any chance of a flat, and should show some choke for the same reason. These things should be measurable by feel only and not necessairly be seen via a borescope. Barrels with these attributes have a much better chance of making the BR grade. That surely is not required for our kind of entertainment, but a fun barrel should shoot 1 inch at a hunnert when chambered with something having recoil. BR barrels made today (which make the grade) shoot 0.1 inch at hunnert, and are actually more accurate than today's scopes. That is, the competitive scopes should have a method to lock down the crosshairs to prevent any possible change in POA. Those kinds of errors are starting to show up now. Who would have thunk it. ... felix
felix
Without intending to hijack this thread, (there's the first lie) I see that Jumptrap and Scrounger have pointed out something that has recently dawned on me. When I retired, six years ago, I bought a semi-custom rifle that was to be a state of the art light rifle for the old man to carry to the top of the mountain and shoot the biggest buck. Accordingly, I ordered a Remington 700 laminated, stainless, Mountain Rifle in .260 Rem. with Leupold Vary X III 2 1/2 to 8X scope, from a gunsmith who specialized in buying factory rifles, evaluating them, then tuning them. This rifle is exactly as ordered, and more accurate than I expected. It is pillared, floated, action slicked, scope mount lapped and rings marked, and trigger adjusted to a crisp three lb. pull. If I hold it down on the bags properly, I can almost guarantee three-shot groups of .500" at 100 yds. It is also a thing of beauty to this beholder. In preparing for a combined deer/elk hunt this fall I have been doing a lot of practice shooting from field positions. I shoot my close to ten lb. rebarreled .35 Whelen Ruger 77 maybe the best I have ever shot any rifle from offhand and kneeling. The Remington? Not so good when I shoot it from real world hunting positions. I have zero confidence in this fine rifle for hunting. Truth is, my iron sighted NRA Sporter Springfield, also at nearly ten pounds, turns in much better scores, IN MY HANDS AND FROM FIELD POSITIONS, than does the semi-cusom .260. The rifles have spoken, the .35 Whelen and the .30/06 are going hunting and the Mountain Rifle will be safely at home, because the game deserves my best equipment and efforts. What this all has to do with expensive vs. economy priced barrels, I don't know, except to say that sometimes some gun nuts can be too smart by half.
Eagles have talons, buzzards don't. The Second Amendment empowers us to be eagles. curmudgeon
BA- You weren't one of the ones I was refering to. I thought you maintained your compsure rather well considering the insane, foul mouthed ravings of one of the members. 'Scuze me for being one of the stricter thinking members for those who find my offense at their offensive writing offensive, but we've usually been above that. No reason we can't disagree and still maintain a bit of decorum. I get paid to let people call me names and swear at me. I'd really rather not see it here.
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