Thinking About Guns

[Blacksmith]

I once thought that the best strategy for what caliber to pick was get the ones that were most common because since there were more of them out there you were more likely to find ammo. Now with the current shortage I am not certain. The local stores have been out of all the common stuff both ammo and components for months however I can buy less common things with no problem.

.45 ACP is out everywhere but no problem with finding .45 Colt.
.308 is gone but I just bought some .45-70 and had a choice of loading.
Unique powder have not seen a can, Black powder, what granulation do you want?

The Old cartridges like .45 Colt and .45-70 were originally loaded with Black Powder and Cast Boolits and could be again. Black powder is easier to make than smokeless.

The guns that shoot them were simpler to make and repair and were more forgiving of variations in what they were fed. Might be better to grab a Colt peacemaker and leaver action rifle than a wonder nine and black rifle.

You would be giving up some things in return for others. You just have to figure out what is most important in your situation.

[Sasquatch-1]

If the , You need only enough ammo to obtain more of what you need. If you have ever watch the OLD version of Red Dawn, Patrick Swaze starts out with a single action revolver and ends up with AK's and RPG's

[starmac]

Most of what I own is either lever action or single action. I never realized I was giving up anything.
Once the not so popular calibers leave the shelves, it takes longer for them to be replaced. In the 08 panic, once 45 colt was gone, it was several months before there was a single box on a shelf anywhere in the state.
As far as simpler to make, I'm thinking the ar's and other black rifles are simpler and easier than levers. There are small companies making them everywhere.

[Blacksmith]

The black rifles are made with injection molders and CNC machines. The lever guns were made by Gunsmiths and hand operated machines powered by water or steam.

[429421Cowboy]

I see alot of sense in your argument, I had always thought that 9mm, .223, .22 lr and the like were the things to have because they were so common (even though i never had a 9 or .223, i just recently got a 9) but this shortage has made me rethink this whole deal. I had planned to get a Kahr CM40 (.40) but ran across a used Kahr PM9 which is a much higher finish and all around nicer gun, with nightsights for the same price as a used .40, so i bit. Here i sit with a carry gun, no ammo or components to be had, and piles of .40, some .45, lots of .380, .32(HR/ACP take your pick) ammo on the shelves. It has shown me that if people truely were making a life and death run on ammo, 9mm, .223 and the like would be the first to go, our beloved .45 Colt, .44 Mag, .257 Bob, .220 Swift, .280 Rem and other less popular calibers would be much easier to get. I see in the reloading arena that the easiest things to find are LR primers, LP primers + magnum versions of both, heavy magnum rifle powder, and hunting rifle bullets. Any small pistol stuff, small rifle powder, .224 bullets, any pistol powders, all next to impossible to come across. Makes me glad i have plenty of powder for my beloved .243, otherwise i would be in bad shape, just because of the run on .223 components. Of course, as you point out, plenty of BP or subs, makes me feel lucky to have old fashioned single action revolvers and boolits, they will digest just about anything i can find to load them with if it comes to that.
When it comes to rimfire, .22 lr is cause for a justifiable homocide right now, .22 mag or .17 HMR, buy all you want! My best friend and shooting partner in the last month has bought a mag cylinder for his revolver and a .17 HMR to shoot prairie dogs with this summer since we can find ammo for both. Our reasoning is that once the panic dies down a bit and we can get components again, trade the .17 off on a .22-250 and start reloading for it, until then, shoot the rimfire.
This has shown me there is something to having obscure calibers in times like this!

[Sasquatch-1]

When it comes to rimfire, .22 lr is cause for a justifiable homocide right now, .22 mag or .17 HMR, buy all you want! My best friend and shooting partner in the last month has bought a mag cylinder for his revolver and a .17 HMR to shoot prairie dogs with this summer since we can find ammo for both. Our reasoning is that once the panic dies down a bit and we can get components again, trade the .17 off on a .22-250 and start reloading for it, until then, shoot the rimfire.
This has shown me there is something to having obscure calibers in times like this!

Just a little side note on your statement about rimfire ammo. I was at the range yesterday to do some work, while there I noticed something fairly rare on the ground. It appear all the abandoned .22 LR brass left on the range started have babies. There was an abundance of .22 short and long brass laying around. Something that in the past has almost been nonexistant.

[1Shirt]

Panic produces panic. IF this panic this time passes, you need to buy what you can afford, when you can afford it, and prepare for the next panic by being well stocked. I don't consider that hoarding, just common sense.
1Shirt!

[Love Life]

I am following your line of thought here Blacksmith, and it makes solid sense. In a panic people will be after the common items. They are common for a reason...there is a steady demand for them.

I talked about this with friends after you posted it and they all agreed that is does make good sense.

[Blacksmith]

If you start to think about possible scarcity of components; powder, primers, bullets, and brass and how finicky some modern self-loaders can be, simpler older technologies can be kept working with what's on hand. Every time I get a failure to feed with certain combinations of bullet/gun; and when trying new loadings or powders that have me thinking about stove pipes and changing springs I give some thought to long term reliability.

Mechanically operated wheel guns, leaver actions, pump guns tend to feed every time regardless of diet. Anyone care to guess on the black powder loading for a .45-70 or a .44-40. Yes you can probably make a 9mm or a .223 go bang with black powder and cast bullets but will it self load for the next shot?

In an ideal world with unlimited funds you will have plenty of each. In the real world you may want to consider all the options and select carefully to cover all bases.

[429421Cowboy]

Just a little side note on your statement about rimfire ammo. I was at the range yesterday to do some work, while there I noticed something fairly rare on the ground. It appear all the abandoned .22 LR brass left on the range started have babies. There was an abundance of .22 short and long brass laying around. Something that in the past has almost been nonexistant.

Shorts are another thing that seem to be quite easy to find lately, at only a slightly higher cost than Long Rifles. I have always kept plenty around for shooting into the bullet trap at our shop for pistol practice and close range fun, now we seem to be doing more of that and less standard range practice at our outdoor range! So it doesn't seem like as much of a compromise to me, but some people aren't too happy about shooting the weaker shorts!

[Houndog]

I guess my thinking runs a little contrary to some of the other posters, but IF, and I certainly hope not, we have a REAL SHTF situation where we have mass killings in the streets you will most likely find useable ammo on dead individuals in 9mm, 40S&w and 223. The military uses 9mm and 223, LEO's use 40s&w and 223 USUALLY and most non gun savy civilians will most likely have one of those 3 chamberings. I own many other firearms in many other chamberings, but if it ever comes down to such a SHTF situation like I described, those 3 chamberings will certainly be with me!

[Love Life]

You also bring up good points Houndog. I reckon it really depends on the scenario.

To cover all bases I reckon it would be good to have your bottom feeders, bolt guns, etc in the common calibers. If the wallet allows it you can have a revolver, lever, or pump in other calibers.

Or we can do like the VP and all buy shotguns!!

[starmac]

By the same line of thought Hound dog, you can also find the guns to fire those common calibers. In a real shtf situation of coarse.

[Clinebo]

If the , You need only enough ammo to obtain more of what you need. If you have ever watch the OLD version of Red Dawn, Patrick Swaze starts out with a single action revolver and ends up with AK's and RPG's

That's right! Back in the Clinton days after Waco and Ruby Ridge, the militia movement got going big time around here. I remember one guy I worked with who went nuts buying up all kinds of guns,ammo,accessories. He asked me if I had something stocked up for when TSHTF......I said No....he was amazed knowing I'm such a gun nut. I told him....I'm just going to come and shoot you and take all your stuff. He didn't know if I was kidding or not. You shouldda seen the look on his face!

[Houndog]

By the same line of thought Hound dog, you can also find the guns to fire those common calibers. In a real shtf situation of coarse.

Also a good point!

[Boerrancher]

Well guys my line of thought is as follows: If you are bugging out you will not be able to pack much unless your bug out vehicle is a road tractor with a 50 foot trailer. You won't have room for a half a dozen rifles, the same number of handguns, all of the reloading components, and the loaded ammo to feed them, and still have room for food, water, shelter, and all of the other things needed to survive an extended period of time. Next you need to think about how far you will be traveling and under what conditions. If you are going to be leaving a major city you need to think about how much fire power you are going to need to get out alive. In a city I would want an M4 in .223, or a Mossberg 500 12 ga with a 20 inch barrel, and all the ammo I could carry, and hope to pick up other guns and ammo along the way. If I was in the burbs, I would still want the M4, but would probably leave the shotgun for the longer range of the rifle. In both situations I would want a reliable handgun. The hand gun would be a single action revolver like the old Ruger 3 screw that I can shoot and reload at the same time. If I didn't have that I would want a 1911 Gov model. They are reliable and work even in the nastiest conditions.

For me living where I live I am a bug in type of fella. I keep a bug out bag in my vehicle. The only thing it is good for is getting me home. I have a couple of MREs, some water, a small first aid kit, water purification tablets, and a box of ammo for my handgun that I keep there, which is a Gov model 1911. If you are bugging in and don't have to move. Then the option of multiple weapons types and cartridges are the only way to go. I have flint lock rifles that I pretty much use regularly to hunt with I make my own flints and have started making my own powder. All of that aside, I like the idea of having both modern and old guns and cartridges. A good combo is a 45-70 and a 45LC paired up with an AR or AK and a good semi auto loading handgun. If you toss in a 308, 30-06, or any of the Magnums in a good shooting bolt gun with good optics you are golden. I can attest to the benefits of a good shooting 308 or larger high velocity cal rifle on the battle field. The AR or AK is nice but it is severely limited by distance. Yes, I have shot perfect scores on the range with the M16 and to do that you have to hit the 400 meter target, so the rifle will do it, but I found out in SW Asia that by the time the round gets 400 meters it doesn't have much punch left to take out the bad guy. The .308 didn't have any problems taking out the bad guys at 400+ meters.

The key to success in any operation, especially a survival one, is M.E.T.-T. Some of you may remember this term and for those of you that have never heard of it I will lay it out.
M=Mission
E=Equipment
T=Troops available
T=Time

Mission in this case is to either bug in or out. That is pretty simple in and of itself until you start throwing in your location, are you going to be moving, and the logistics of moving or staying put. All of those factors and any other considerations not covered below must be looked at.

Equipment available is also going to require some deep thought, because you will never be able to have all you want or need. Even in the most modern and best equipped army I was never able to get everything I needed. Learn to improvise and adapt, especially when it comes to your weapons and ammo.

Troops available, well look at it as who all is going with you. Will you have elderly or children to worry about? How much can they carry and how far can they travel in a day? Can they use weapons and if so can they pack enough ammo for that weapon along with the food and water they need. Also match up weapons systems wisely with the people you have. Don't give your 7 year old boy an M14 and 2 ammo cans of 308 to feed it. Give him a 22 and a carton of ammo for it. Same thing with an elderly member of the party. Don't give them a 300 RUM and 10 boxes of ammo, to pack. Choose who you include wisely, your life will depend on it.

Time. Time covers lots of things. The time of year must be considered. The amount of time you have to secure those in your group once things go bad, and the amount of time it will take your group to get where you are going if you are bugging out. Be realistic in your planning when it comes to time, because it is like equipment, you will never have enough time.

Best wishes,

Joe

[horsesoldier]

#1 on METT-C Boerrancher.I use it for everything

[Love Life]

Geez. I feel like I should be jamming out a ridonkulously long 5 paragraph order. The bane of every Infantryman's existence...

[Mustangpalmer1911]

I am going with black powder firearms. BP is easy to make and a fintlock rifle will feed you just as easy as a 308 if you know what you are doing. A BP cartridge gun or even a flinter will get you the other stuff you might need to upgrade if you are smarter than the avg idiot.

[Boerrancher]

#1 on METT-C Boerrancher.I use it for everything

I left out the C because if things fall apart to where you are worried surviving, "Civilians on the Battlefield" is not going to exist like it does in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Geez. I feel like I should be jamming out a ridonkulously long 5 paragraph order.

Believe it or not the five paragraph op ord is a great tool for prepping just like MET-T. The op ord is an ideal way of organizing your plan and dispersing it to those who are in your group. Even if your group is just you and the wife, the 5 paragraph op ord tells everyone what they should be doing and when, so that you don't have to be there watching over everything. It is one of many tools that developed over the years to aid in organizing and planing.

Best wishes,

Joe