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Thread: AA5744 preassure comparison

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    bigted's Avatar
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    AA5744 preassure comparison

    well had too much time on my hands again today so my feeble mind took over and i came up with another conunderum for myself...so here is where i pawn the thought on to others to see if your thoughts go the same way as mine did.

    this prolly should be in another spot but i wanted to involve fellers that i know lend theirselves in thought and as such have solved the smokless paperpatch problems...so here it lands and if for some reasson it gets moved then i understand.......i think


    concerning firearms designed in blackpowder days i use small doses of AA5744 + fill [cornmeal] and call it good and never thought about comparing it to other powders for the preassure range.

    looking at 45-70 for example...i see that way more grains of 3031 from IMR for instance...[really like IMR 3031]...has less preassure then the AA5744 powder . so being a natural obnoxious feller i deduce that if i can get more powder in my cases...be they 45-70 or 43 spanish...using the IMR 3031 ... then i can preassurewise with the AA5744 ... then the chance of double loading is reduced and i get to use my fav powder.

    had a knowledgable feller provide info that you could NOT get enough 3031 in a case to harm a rifle no matter what manufacture date it has on it and still seat a bullet so as to chamber in said firearm.

    so im asking others if my thinking is foobar or if yall think im on the rite path. dont want to ever get close to blowing up a good rifle from yesteryear...IMR 4350,,,IMR4831,,,IMR4064...ect

    what say yee ??
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I like your way of thinking. Your quest should be a little easier because of the case proportions, I should think.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    You can over load IMR 3031 pressure wise for a trapdoor with a full case. I have used both powders in 45-70's and in my 1895 Marlin I have used as much as 53 grains of IMR 3031 with a 400 grain bullet which will take a trapdoor apart.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    yes i agree with the trapdoor preassures and a casefull of 3031...however my thinking is that in smaller doses ,,,such as in the lyman books trapdoor section for 45-70 should be fine for all blackpowder built rifles...dont you agree?

    my quest is for the 43 spanish rite now and there is no written section in any book that ive seen on smokless in a rolling block reimington chambered for 43 spanish. i have started with 23 grains 5744 and fill the rest with c/m [this load with a 430 grain lyman sized down to .452 is very accurate in this ol roller] but i would like to experiment with other powders such as 3031 but with no written info i shy away so as to keep my rifle in one piece.

    do you guys think i could safely follow the 45-70 trapdoor loadings in the roller or do you think the bottleneck case is going to be a nag with preassures?
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I don't mind using fillers in a straight case but I would be leary in a bottle neck case with a larger shoulder. If I recall the 43 spanish does not have too big of a shoulder.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    even in the case of the .45/70 cartridge there is no mention of a filler with the use of 5477 powder in the reloadsheets.
    i have a can of lovex d060 powder and on the factory printing there is a load suggested , again no filler.
    d060 by the way is the same powder as aa 5477.

    i just opened a thread with reload data for vithavouri n 110 , reduced loads , the 45/70 is also mentioned there.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Varget is another case filling powder that works quite well in the 45/70, I have been using 50 grains with a 405 grain bullet which is the max load for the Trapdoor but at that according to Hodgdon it's only 20,000 CUP for a bit over 1700 fps, IMO still a bit hot for a Trapdoor and these I shoot in a Marlin 1895. The minimum (Trapdoor data) is 40 grains which give BP like pressures with very little air space in the case, the 55 grain max load for the Marlin with this bullet is actually a compressed load but at that it's still only 25,000 CUP.

    Not PP info but I suppose it does address the powder issue the same way.
    Last edited by oldred; 03-06-2013 at 07:12 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    correct...the 43 has a very small shoulder and as such it still has a bit more volumn then the 45-70...and therefore i would think that the preassure should be less in the 43 then in a 45-70 [grain for grain] what with the case being 2.250 inch as opposed to the 2.1 of the 45-70.

    i think that high bp preassures were and are capable of being in the high teens or very low 20's...am i correct in this thinking?...if so then maybe im being overly carefull with my smokless loadings. i do know that the 77 and 80 grain loads with 430 grain boolits seem to have a bunch more recoil [tho a different sort of recoil] then any 5744 load ive tryed thus far [being up to 28 grains and filler].

    my concern is for the origanal remington rifle and barrel rather then the fairly heavy cases in this 43 spanish chambering. maybe the bottleneck [sorta] case and rifle is more capable then i am giving it credit for.

    the book "loading and shooting the 43 spanish" has sections on both smokless and blackpowder loading for this round and in it he mentions using filler such as cornmeal so i feel confident using it in my loads. also have read of others using it in bottleneck cases like the 44-77,,40-70 bn,,40-90 bn,,43 spanish,,43 egyption,,43 reformado ... all these are fairly close to a straight case with little flair in the 'bottleneck' area.

    so on n on n on...guess im just getting a bit scary in my old age huh?
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Another approach, one I have been using just because I have the powder, is to use something entirely too slow for the application. I have a bunch of WC860, which by itself in the 45-70 gives about 600 fps and throws most of it on the ground, unburnt. So I duplex load it, with 5 gr. 5744 against the primer. This way it burns clean, gives tight velocity variations, and duplicates black powder velocities.

    Anything slower than IMR4350 will allow you to load a full case in the 45-70 and not overpressure it, so in the 43 Spanish just go a little slower than that - like IMR7838 or AA3100 and you'll be in business.

    -Nobade

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    bigted, being over careful allows you to see with two eyes and able to count to ten just using your hands.

    I try not to use fillers as it adds additional expense and another step in the reloading process.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master 40-82 hiker's Avatar
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    Before he left Western (Accurate Arms), I spoke with Johan Loubser (AA's ballistician) and he told me emphatically that one should not use filler with AA5744. I have used 5744 for a couple of years in .40-82 and .45-70 and like it very much. In fact, he stated that his testing showed there are no position related issues with 5744 in even the largest 50 caliber cases.
    However, the concern over double charging is very real, but it exists with other powders as well in these big cases.

    Sorry if this appears twice, had trouble posting.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    However, the concern over double charging is very real, but it exists with other powders as well in these big cases.
    Faster powders in larger cases are very tempting but .... !
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #13
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    5744 works very well in the 45-70 w/o a filler at TD psi's with 400 - 500 gr bullets. It works a lot better with a 1 - 1 1/2 gr dacron filler. For a lower pressured load try 37 - 40 gr 4895 with the same dacron filler under a 400- 420 gr cast bullet. Photo shows a 100 yard target with 37 gr milsurp 4895 w/dacron under a 413 gr commercial cast. Target was at 100 yards.

    BTW; the use of cornmeal, coffee, etc can really increase the psi way above what level you may want. I know because I have measured such psi's. I did a test for some 45-70 shooters here and posted the results a few years back.

    Larry Gibson

    Attachment 63445

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    When the tech said no fillers with 5744 he would have been referring to 'bulk fillers', not powder locators like Dacron. Well I don't think of Dacron as a filler.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    When the tech said no fillers with 5744 he would have been referring to 'bulk fillers', not powder locators like Dacron. Well I don't think of Dacron as a filler.
    The tech also said the powder was not position sensitive so why add another step to the process?
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The tech also said the powder was not position sensitive so why add another step to the process?
    Well, one reason is that Larry has told us it works better with Dacron. Possibly because the Dacron is protecting the boolit base or causing something else to happen? I have found it to prevent boolit base peening by the powder but then I use a compressed tuft of Dacron, not a fluffed out tuft. That's because I want a wad under the boolit for that purpose.

    Oh, there is another very good reason to use Dacron - it stops the powder from spilling out should the cartridge get de-boolited.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  17. #17
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    "Not position sensitive" and smallest velocity variations are two different things. AA5744 ignites fine without a dacron "powder locator" but accuracy is better when one is provided. Much the same is true for SR4759 and Reloder7 in large straight walled cases. If the bullet is undersize then a true filler like cream of wheat or cornmeal/plastic shot buffer may be required. Remember to work up all "fillered" loads a little at a time.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I have a Remington 40X chambered for 7.62 NATO that I have attached a strain gage to, in a effort to find out the cause of occasional fliers.

    The load with this gun is with AA5744 powder, SAECO #315 175 gr. T.C.G.C. bullet 30:1 alloy lubed with Bull Shop’s NASA lube , Lapua case, and Fed 210M primer.

    With 19.6 grains of powder my record 5 shot group at 100 yds. is .305” and you can see the flier, and my record 5 shot group at 300 yds. is 1.610” and again you can see the flier.

    What the strain gage showed was there was as much as .5 millisecond's delay in ignition even though the extreme spread was only 20 fps.

    I tried adding powder going as high as 25 grains, and it still had some issues with ignition but I had exceeded the limits of the 30:1 alloy at over 2000 fps.

    I am following two threads here about adding copper to our alloy and extreme lube to incorporate them into tests.
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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Very interesting. Do different primers do the same thing?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I shot these loads with both large primers Fed 210M and 215M and both had the occasional .5 millisecond delay.

    I even shot some of these loads with the new Lapua Palma Cases with the small rifle pocket and Fed 205M primers.

    I did forget to mention that there was a pressure spike with all shots towards the muzzle.

    I am going to try a tuff of Dacron to see if this will help. The other two alternatives are a heavier bullet or change to a faster powder.
    I admit just looking at the target and the chronograph results one would come to the conclusion it was a great load.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check