Help with 03A3 Mk I

[0802]

I've recently gotten a M1903A3 Mk I and have been working to get it going. Put some cast loads (Lee 170 Gr FP sized .309 over 20 gr 2400) through it that I had on hand, accuracy was pretty bad. Slug the bore says I, so I clean it and slug. I've not slugged many rifles, but the grooves on the slug were barely visible and the slug measure something like .302. However, the rifling is strong (visually speaking), so its not an absence of grooves. . Lots of gunk (lead) in the muzzle end after slugging too. So I really begin to really clean it up and find its still very dirty. Soak overnight in bore cleaner, next morning clean some more. Basically every time I put bore cleaner on a patch it comes out filthy. As the layers come off, I can begin to see the muzzle end is very pitted, though the breech end is in pretty good shape except for one spot.

What now? Will running lead through it reestablish the build up I've spent about 5 hours getting out? Rebarrel? Is it worth it? Try J words?

This rifle is in decent shape except for the barrel, it would be a shame to make it a hanger.

Help.

Josh

[JCherry]

0802,

The best thing I've found to remove lead like you describe is copper scrubbing pads. Be sure to use only 100 percent copper pads (there is apparently some pads made of steel plated with copper). Brawney makes some of these pads and it has a bar code number of 70982 05011, it states it is 100 percent copper right on the box. My experience with this product indicates it is indeed all copper. I got mine about a year ago from a store called "Big Lots" for .99 cents. The box should last a lifetime.

To use these copper pads cut off a small piece ( the pads are wrapped into kind of a donut shaped pad that you can unravel) and wrap it around an old bore brush or just place the piece over a jag and force it into the bore wetted with some sort of solvent. Run the copper through the bore several times and see what it does. I think you will be happy with the results.

The load you are using, 20 grains of 2400 may be a little much, try the old standby of 16 grains of 2400 and I'll bet it will work better. You also might have better luck with a .311 sized bullet. I suspect that with the amount of 2400 you are using and the .309 bullet you are having powder gas blowing by your bullet causing the leading.

What lube are you using?

Good Luck,

Have Fun,

JCherry

[0802]

I'll give it a try. After further work, it appears the muzzle end is tight because of corrosion/pitting/whatever. So slugging from the muzzle end deforms the slug before it can really engage the rifling. Looks like the bad part of the barrel is only the last 1/2 to 1 inch.

[JCherry]

0802,

It's hard to say what is going on with your barrel. Small pits won't necessarily give you problems, large pits that interfere with the crown of your barrel could be a problem.

One thing which may help is to insert a clean white patch from the receiver end into the barrel and push it in until it's about one half to one fourth inch from the muzzle. Hold the muzzle under a strong light and examine it with a strong magnifying glass or a jewelry loup etc.

Lead fouling will appear silver or grey. Copper fouling may not always be easy to see unless you have just used some copper solvent in which case it will be a bright copper color.

Be sure to examine the crown under magnification for any damage.

Have you used any copper solvent? If not get some and follow the directions until you no longer get any blue on your cleaning patch. If you just got the rifle it may have lots of copper fouling which will destroy lead bullet accuracy.

You may have several layers of copper, powder and lead fouling and it may be necessary to alternate between cleaning methods until you get it all out.

Is your rifle in military configuration or sporterized?

Have Fun,

JCherry

[floodgate]

0802:

You refer to it as an "03A3 Mark I". It must be a composite or a rebuild, as the Mark I with the big ejection port in the left sidewall (for the "Pedersen Device") was a late WW I issue, and the '03A3 was a Remington modification of the '03, simplified for WW II production, some 20+ years later. It is characterized by sheet-metal fittings and triggerguard, an aperture sight mounted on the rear receiver bridge, and a non-removable magazine floorplate. What is the action marking and serial (right side of front action ring) and the barrel maker / date stamp? I believe that many of the Mark I's WERE rebuilt for WW II usage.

floodgate

[0802]

Its still in military configuration and I intend for it to stay that way. I've put 40 rds of lead through it and thats all. I know it sat around for years in a closet, but beyond that I don't know. I'm continuing to clean, but I'm pretty sure the pitting is severe near the crown. It looks like one of the lands is almost gone about 1/8 in below the crown, but picks up further down.

BTW -- my lube is RCBS green, though I'll probably won't be using it in the future, I'll start using BullShop.

Josh

[0802]

I stand corrected and embarassed, you are right. I had two different rifles going through my head. The other that also needs my attention is the 03A3.

The rifle in question is indeed a M1903 Mark I, Springfield Armory 1133xxx. It has SA, a bursting bomb, and 5-42 on the barrel by the front sight.

I think you're right about the Mark I rebuilds for WWII. I think that fact(?) and the 03A3 WWII production combined in my mind to make the mistake.

[JCherry]

0802,

With that kind of damage looks like you are in for either a counter bore or a new barrel.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[0802]

I think I've got most of the fouling out, definite pitting in the muzzle. How far down can it be counterbored? Recrowning definitely won't do it. I think most of the pitting is within 1/2 in, maybe 3/4 in of the muzzle, but can't really measure it. It gradually gets better as you go.

What should I expect to pay for counterboring? How difficult a procedure is it i.e. how hard do I have to look for a good smith? I'm only here for a year and don't have one that I've used before.

Thanks for all the help.

Josh

[JCherry]

Not sure what to tell you since I can't see the barrel.

Options you can try are;

Keep cleaning until you are POSITIVE all fouling is gone. (Did you use a copper remover? Did you clean until there were no blue patches. Could you see any copper color inside the muzzle? etc. etc.)

What about that groove that was missing about 1/8 inch down is it still the way you descibed earlier or did your continued cleaning make any visible difference?

After you are positive it is clean take it to the range and shoot some loads that shoot well in your other Springfield. It may do just fine, if so leave it alone and shoot it.

If it fouls up again find a gunsmith and talk it over with him. I'm not sure how deep they can go with a counterbore nor how much it will cost.

Sorry I can't be of greater help.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[0802]

Thanks for the help -- you've been a great deal of help. Continued to clean but am still getting dirty patches. Just couldn't spend any more time on it now. I want to try a different solvent though I don't think it will make a difference. All I had on hand was some Remington bore cleaner (says its good for lead, powder, and copper) and some #9. Going to try to get some 7.62 or something at the exchange tomorrow on the way home from work -- they have a decent selection of stuff. Otherwise, its a 30 min drive one way to get different solvent.

Looking at it in good it light and under a not so good magnifying glass makes it look worse. Some shiny stuff here and there in the last 1/4 to 1/8, but I think that what is supposed to be the smooth surface of the barrel, not lead. That missing land didn't reappear at all. Just seems to have corroded away, appears at about 3/4 down or so. As a whole, the barrel just doesn't seem to be smoothing up at all -- still looks really rough.

Like you suggested, I'm going to get it very clean and try it again. But that last 3/4 of an inch looks more like sandpaper than steel, so we'll see. . .

Found info elsewhere on here that said they had counterbored down an inch (on a M1903A3). I think that might do it. But I'll try shooting her again first, cleaning with different solvent before that.

What do you think gives me the best potential at this point? Cast sized to 310 or 311 or Js? I suppose I'll just try a little of all of them and see.

Thanks,
Josh

[Char-Gar]

Things do not look hopeful for that barrel, but I would not make any decision until it was free of powder and metal fouling. Where it my rifle, I would pour a couple of quarts of boiling hot water down the barrel. Use a funnel and pour from the breech end.

I would then use a good power solvent and Sweets 7.62 until the barrel was totaly clean.

If at that point, the barrel muzzle was pitted at the muzzle with part of a land eaten away, I would try a counterbore. If the damanag is too extensive to remove that way, I would rebarrel the rifle. Plenty of new surplus barrel out there, but they are pricey from what they were a few years ago.

Good luck, that rifle is well worth what it takes to get it back in service.

[38-55]

0802,
Just my experience here... I have some old guns that have hideous barrels that should not shoot by everyones standards but by fiddling with loads I have managed to get reasonable accuracy out of them ( 2.5-3 moa). To put it bluntly they ain't making no more old guns so you really run the risk of turning a 800 dollar rifle into a a 100 dollar action by modifying it.... If I was you I'd just fiddle with you load, size of bullet etc.. Plus a good cleaning ( like your doing ) may really help things out.
Just my 2 cents
Calvin

[JCherry]

0802,

In my experience bore cleaner that says it does everything is not what you want. The 7.62 will do the trick with any copper fouling. Be sure and follow the directions. Some of the ammonia based solvents can do damage to your barrel if the directions are not followed. Get a nylon brush & jag to use with this.

I have found that running a patch wet with Acetone through the barrel just before using 7.62 helps.

The #9 should do for the powder/carbon fouling.

If you are seeing anything shiny in your barrel my guess is that it is lead. Use a tight copper pad to remove that.

Concerning what bullet to use, it seems you are just getting started with cast bullets in rifles and I would suggest that perhaps you may be better off using J-bullets at this point in time until you get this issue with your barrel taken care of. Just have your bottles of 7.62 and #9 handy.

If you want to go ahead or when you decide to continue with the cast bullets I would suggest you do an "impact casting" or a Cerrosafe casting of the throat of your rifle before you do anything else with cast bullets. I'll bet that in your Springfield a .311 cast bullet would work. The land diameter of your barrel is also important. My guess is that with a bullet ogive of .3005-.301 you will be ok. Basically the goal is that the ogive of your bullet is just "kissed" by the origin of the lands.

To do an "impact casting" take an empty shell and put a steel bolt that is cut so when placed inside the shell it is about 1/4 inch below the mouth of the case. Make a PURE LEAD bullet and insert into the case mouth, (you do not really need to size the case) put the shell into your chamber (you should lightly oil the bore and throat of the barrel before doing this) and close the bolt. Now take a steel rod that fits closely into your barrel (you should wrap the rod with electrical tape at several points to protect the inside of your barrel from the rod slapping it under the impacts). Hit the rod several blows with a heavy hammer to upset the bullet into the throat and lands. Then open the bolt and carefully push/tap out the shell.

The resulting shell with the upset pure lead bullet will give you exact dimensions of the inside of your chamber/throat/forceing cone/bore etc. A micrometer is the best tool to determine these dimensions. Draw a diagram of this impact casting, be sure to note the length from the head of the case forward to the different dimensions with a vernier caliper. File the diagram in your load book for future reference. The dimension that will tell you what size bullet you need is that of your throat just forward of the mouth of the case.

For Cerrosafe do a search on this forum and you will find lots of information, some pro and some against. I prefer the "impact casting".

The posts by Charger and 38-55 have very good points.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[stillhunter]

Try lyman 311466 with 13 grs 4227, should give you 1in groups at 50yds. Lyman 311284 shoots well , 2.5 in groups, at 100yds with 23gr 4227. My 03A1 is worn at both ends and still groups nicely with both of these loads. My bore is a bit dark, but at these volocitys the leading is very mild. Good luck

[0802]

OK, shot this rifle today with success. Resorted to some 150 Gr SP j-words. Its no sniper rifle, but certainly good enough not to have rebarreled or counterbored. Haven't measured the group, but maybe 3-4 in at 50 yds using a "guess" load. Last group of the day was the best -- I'm certain I can shrink it with some work.