I have an older Winchester 94, I believe mid 80's vintage, (whiich believe has a slower twist, 1-38, I think). I would like to give the Lee 310 flat point bullet a try in it. Does anyone have experience or input ? Am I barking up the wrong tree with the twist rate ?
If you have had luck, any data or learning you could share with me ?
Last edited by cabezaverde; 08-02-2005 at 08:09 AM.
Originally Posted by cabezaverde
I get the Lee brochure every year and it is always on the floor with the latest gun mags beside the bed (annoys the wife something fierce, but she gave up trying to make me stop this about 20 years ago). That brocure is better value than any gun mag I ever bought, especially the mould page. I study that page over and over again, thinking about what moulds I should get, etc. I have a few, but that big 44Mag boolit mould gets me in. I'll have to buy one, I've been staring at the picture of it for years and years now. The big 30cal moulds get me in also.
I'm looking forward to finding out something about this from someone who has actually tried it. It would hit with a whallop being such a flat big boolit.
MIck.
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Last edited by Bullshop Junior; 08-02-2005 at 01:35 PM.
I have been using the Lee 310 wfn/gc in a Marlin 94/44 mag for oh I guess at least ten years or so. I once did a test to see just how fast it could go from the Marlin. The week link in the Marlin is its stamped steel extractor. If cases begin to have drag from the chamber the extractor will pop over the rim and leave the case in the chamber. It does'nt take much drag for the extracter to fail. I loaded to the point where extraction was about 50% and Dr. Ohler said that was 1800 fps. I backed the load down to 100% extraction and it chronoed at 1700 fps so settled on that as the big load for this gun. I have two 6 cav molds I got years ago as prototype from Lee but I see it is now a reguler item. I just recently got a six cav in the same design in 45. As luck would have it they drop at .456". When I first started with the 44 version I recal one morning seeing out the window a large domestic rabbit and thought to try the 44 Marlin on it. At about 40 yds he sat faceing me so when the beed was on his nose it touched off. I could not believe the explosion of hair and rabbit limbs at the shot. The impact of that big flat nose compleately sepperated the four limbs. My favorite part the back was gone but I picked up the legs in good shape,they were blown a few feet apart of each other. My feeling has since been that the 94 Marlin 44 mag or similer is the lighest packege one can house this much power in. At one time I felt the 45 was equal but my feelings have changed on that. I now feel it is not as safe a venture with a 45 due to the reduced chamber wall thickness in the fairly slim barrel shank and receiver. I know many will not agree with me on this but I can legaly feel this way so I will continue, and others can do the same. I feel the same about 50 cal conversions on the 336. I know it is being done, but I wont do it. Anyways that 44 load has been trust worthy for a long time takeing much game and performing like a much bigger gun. To be honest I think that Marlin 94/44 mag load with its ten round capacity would handle anything on God's green earth. Sorry I am a bit hesitant about giving my spesific load but anyone with a good understanding of loading can figure it out.
BIC/BS
Bullshop,
I have a '94 Marlin in 44 also and suppose you have the 38" twist. Have you shot yours at 100yds or more to see if the bullet is still stabilized on paper target? I thought I was doing something getting my 245grn Keith bullet up to 1800fps using LilGun. Mine is a '98 model with ballard rifling and I have to have a 1.685" OAL to catch the crimp groove on this bullet. I'm still not sure I could get mine up to 1700fps with a 310grn bullet but has me wondering.
Bill
BlueMoon
The gun I used for this test was an old first model pre micro groove. I don't know the twist as I gave it to my Dad when I left Mt. The one I have now is a rebuild from a second model with the newer barrel. I have not yet tried that load in this gun. One thing I have noticed is the first model would handle a longer cartridge. The old gun would keep the big load at well under 4" at 100 yds and that is all the farther I would shoot with it. With that limit there was never a problem killing critters down to coyote size. A 250gn boolit will group better but good nuff is good nuff.
BIC/BS
I think this same bullet shape in a 230 - 250 grain model would be great for all those lever guns out there.
Cabezaverde:
I've got a '94 Winchester .44 Trapper from the same era. Barrel looks like a Marlin Microgroove...12 groove and 1 in 38" twist.
I've never tried the Lee 310 gr bullet in it. However, I've known others to have problems stablizing a 300 gr out of a .44 Mag Marlin with a 38" twist Microgroove...seems to take .444 Marlin velocities to guarantee stabilization. Some claim the 38" twist will stablize the bullets...but most have a different experience. Would seem to me that the experience should be the same but my guess is that 300 gr. is right on the line of marginal stablization and those driving the bullet the hardest might have some success at least at shorter ranges.
I don't know what bullets you've tried in your rifle, but my vote for a good choice in a heavier .44 would be the old Thompson GC still made by Lyman (429244). Its pretty much a Keith design but Thompson committed heresy where Keith was concerned by slipping a gas check on the bullet. It may not have been necessary for a handgun but it works wonders in a rifle...especially a Microgroove. With WW alloy, gaschecked, and lubed it weights in a 159 gr. Can confirm excellent accuracy and stablization to 150 yrd with this one...1700 fps out of the 16" Trapper using 23 gr 110 and 3 shot groups of at least 1.5 inches at 100 yds. (Possibly better but that's the limit of these old eyes with receiver sights).
Thanks everyone,
My barrel sounds the same as MTWeathermans.
I have an RCBS 44-245 KT mold I will try. Any light load data to share ?
I did shoot some of the Lee 310's last night. The ones that were pushed by a light charge of Unique went throught the target sideways at 25 yards. Higher charges of 2400 had it going through straight and it looked like it could group decently with some tweaking. I did this more to shoot up the loads, as the sideways holes made me realize this bullet did not have 75 yard potential in this rifle. They kick a bit too.
Just checked my original post...should have previewed it before submitting it...that should read 259 grs. on the bullet weight for the Lyman 429244 but you likely already figured that out.
I did some work with the Lee 200 gr. in this rifle for a light plain base plinking load..The bullet weight was actually was closer to 210 gr. Wanted velocity to be near 1100 fps to provide a 25 yard impact near the full power Lyman as possible. Unique didn't provide the best groups...it turned out bullseye worked best which was not what I expected.
Since you've already got the 310 gr. Lee and you and I share the same rifle, I'm curious to see if you can develop a usable load within acceptable pressure levels. If you're successful, would appreciate hearing about it.
Greenhead;
I have been shooting the 310gr in a .44-40, 19gr H110 gives 1350-1375fps in the 20 " barrel.
Have just received a .44mag. barrel for my Handirifle and will be working on loads with the 310gr and the C429-240-SWC.
I was getting 1 1/2" 50 yd groups with the '92 and the 310gr at 1350fps +-, I thinkthe '92 has about a 1/36 twist, the new HR barrel is 1/16, but 12 lands/grooves, may take waterdropped bullets for much speed.
Don
A lot of fellows shoot the bullet in both the 44 Mag and the 444 Marlin. I'm traveling but I believe I have a load for both. I see I posted this in Beartooth Bullets' LoadSwap, it is a 444 Load.
RD's LoadSwap Load for Lee Cast C430-310-RF
I'm pretty sure Lee's Modern Reloading II has a load for the 44 Mag. It's a bit undersized for Marlin bores (need .432" in either caliber) but I don't know about the Winchesters.
Michael
All the bigger pistol bullets that I have tried print sideways at 50 yds. Could a shorter bullet be the answer? Captain
"Like cool water to a thirsty soul is good news from a distant land." Prov. 25:25
Yes, and almost a guarantee at that. Nothing longer than the Thompson 429244. We are also talking gas checked boolits. ... felix
felix
You'll have better luck with a 215 gr. bullet that is fat than anything else you might try.
Hi guys, I am new to your list. Have a couple of questions for you, I have on my reloading bench about two hundred 300gr lead bullets FT which I'd like to put to good use with my Bullseye powder . I've been told that I should keep velocities to 1,000 ft/sec, or less, so as to keep barrel leading/fouling to a minimum. Is this true? And do any of you have a good recipe that would help me achieve my goal? Can this round develop into a potent hunting round as well as an accurate plinker for my new Winchester 94 Trapper (16.5" barrel as well as my Ruger Superblackhawk pistol)? Truth is I'd like to load one round that's good for hogs and well as target practice. No predators beyond coyote to speak of around here but it doesn't hurt to be prepared when walking through the woods which I do quite often at my property.
BTW I was also told not to use the old trick of shooting a jacketed round after shooting lead rounds to help remove barrel lead. In doing so one only increases the barrel's pressure to extremes with possibly devastating results. Do you agree?
Last edited by gcp; 02-27-2008 at 06:09 AM.
gcp,
Welcome. Well if you read the posts above, you can see that guys are doing more than you've been told. Do things correctly and get no leading. Don't do them right and you can lead at 800 fps. You need another powder besides Bullseye. It will go bang, but not appropriate if you are just starting out.
Depends. If your bore is leaded to where you can't see your rifling, then you can have a real issue. But if your leading is more smearing, just like with a copper wash, You are OK. You shoot over copper that is harder don't you?
You can use the search function at the top of the page, third from the right and get a wealth of information that all it will take is your time to get through. Welcome aboard.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
....thank you for your welcome and your input. But I am confused on your Bullseye comment since the Lee reloading book specifies 6.1-6.8gr for 310 gr leads. Are you saying this will not be a good performer for the 300s?
Frankly I don't use lead bullets much that's why I am trying to learn the details and their possible effects on the barrel from you experts. Maybe casting will be something I'd like to get into but I have much learning to do. I've reloaded for many years btw, pistols and rifles of many calibers.
Thanks,
gcp
bump n tag
John
Winchester ‘92s & 94s
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