I know that it would be more work, but how about making a smooth roughing Cherry (with out the grease grooves so it looks like a jacketed bullet) just smaller then the diameter of the bottom of the grease grooves. Then when you go to finish cut, the bulk of the material will already have been removed.
That makes alot of sense; and believe it or not I actually thought about doing that very thing until I'd turned and then proceeded to screw up my third Cherry. By then, frustration had set in and the last thing I wanted to do was turn another Cherry.Originally Posted by Doc Highwall
But; now you got me thinking. I might be able to turn down that "Stand-By" Cherry I have pictured in one of the post above. One of the reasons I didn't want to use that particular one just yet was because I made it just a little shorter than the five-flute Cherry that I messed up yesterday. (incidentally, I'm still going to try to harden and temper that previously messed up Cherry)
I finished turning my latest candidate Cherry today at lunch time so, all I need now is a little free time to set it up on the mill and cut the flutes.
I sure wish I owned a CNC Lathe. Then I could turn a bunch of identical Cherries and ruin them in bunches rather than one at a time.
I'll be back.
HollowPoint
Hollowpoint, lots of us would like to have our own mills or at least access to one. It is great that you are knee deep in this project and sharing your escapades. Keep up the good and inspirational work.
Common sense Gun Safety . . .
Is taught at the Range!
Greetings fcvan:
And thanks for the encouragement.
I scrambled to get all my income-producing work done today so I could finish milling the flutes on my latest Cherry/Reamers. All that scrambling seems to have paid off cause I got it all done with a couple of hours to spare.
I milled those flutes, Heat Teated and Tempered that last Cherry along with one other reamer I made up to use to form another part of my Boat-Tailed Gas-Check dies.
Being that I'm always pressed for time, I also went ahead and cut the cavities in that mold I had already made. The Cherry worked out well. The bullet mold is a little rough around the edges but, good enough for testing purposes. The cavities look like they were cut with a serrated edge but, no matter. The purpose was to produce a concentric Boat-Tailed bullet.
I might be able to polish out the cavities once I've cast a few bullets with it. I don't want to get ahead of myself but, I think the next one will be just a single cavity hollow pointed mold so that I can integrate my Synthetic Bullet Tips along with the Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks.
It was a learning process. I think the next time I make up a Cherry I'll be able to produce something a little more professional looking and with alot more functionality. It looks like next time I'll have to devote a little more effort to the finish on the cutting edges of my Reamers. That means turning to the rough diameter and then polishing to final size so that I don't get that serrated edge transfered onto the walls of the mold cavities.
I'll post pics later. For now; I think I'll call it a day. Sorry I wasn't able to video record the cutting the cavities on this mold. Maybe next time.
HollowPoint
Last edited by HollowPoint; 04-05-2013 at 10:05 PM.
I've been swamped at work lately. Any free increments of time I've had left over have been invested in this ongoing project.
I have a few more pics waiting to be edited and posted.
Also some Bad-News and Good-News updates.
With any luck I may be able to cast up some more bullets with my most recent bullet mold this weekend.
If a picture can say a thousand words this post would read something like this:Followed by,
And then by,
And eventually we'd get to the happy dance.
I'll post more details as soon as I can.
HollowPoint
Last edited by HollowPoint; 04-15-2013 at 09:02 PM.
Well: I cast up some bullets using that bullet mold I have pictured in the previous bullet mold image I posted. The actual casting went OK but, the bullets themselves were non-concentric.
I mean that the mold block halves had shifted side-ways just enough to throw a monkey-wrench into all that work. I had just enough metal stock to make one more attempt so I went about it a little differently this time.
When I cut the cavities on that "Non-concentric" bullet mold I used two sided tape to hold it in place on my self-centering vice. Apparently the heat and the vibration imparted by that lone Cherry having to cut nearly the entire cavity was enough to cause one or both halves of that mold to shift over enough to give me two out-of- round cavities.
This time around I bolted my mold block halves into place using the vice's own Jaw-Securing-Bolts. It seems to have done the trick. Both mold block halves stayed put as I cut the cavities.
I also tried a different method for aligning my mold blocks with one another. Rather than using the traditional alignment pins I used three 3/16" guide rods to align both halves of my mold. I don't know how well this will work out in the long run but, for the time being I should give me more than a few test bullets. That's all I'm looking for right now.
At this point it's important to note that the subject of this thread was for the Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks and Dies. Both of which have been done for some time now. In order to test these new Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks, a dedicated bullet mold had to be made. Remember I tried just adding a beveled extension on the tail end of one of my existing 30 caliber molds but I couldn't get them to align well enough with the existing cavities.
I lathe-turned a fifth Cherry; along with a rough-cutting Cherry to ream out the general shape of my cavities. Then I went back in and Finish-Reamed to final shape with my actual bullet Cherry.
With that previous bullet mold it was wisely suggested by Doc HighWall that making a Roughing-Cherry might simplify the cutting of my cavities. It made alot of sense but, for a couple of different reasons I didn't heed that advice at the time. This time around I did just that.
I'm not sure how much more room I have for posting pics on this forum. I have a few more pictures that I want to post so that most of what I've just tried to describe makes a little more sense. If I have to I'll take down some of the images I've already posted to make room for the newer ones.
If the cavities on this latest mold are still out-of-round I'll have to wait until I can drive over and pick up some more metal stock. Also; I ran into a minor glitch with my CNC Hobby mill. The cooling-fan gave up the ghost on me. I've ordered a new one but, it's coming from China so I don't know exactly how long it will take to get here.
I can buy replacement fans from the factory but the price is about three times as expensive when you factor in shipping. The Chinese replacement fans are $13.99 including shipping; and there's a high probability that the same little Chinese kids assembled both the factory cooling fans and the one I've ordered.
I did get a chance to test-cast a few more bullets with my latest mold. The bullets appear to be concentric enough for testing. Now it really is just a matter of finding the free time to shoot them.
I'll be back once I've done that.
HollowPoint
I finally got a chance to make it to the range this morning for the testing of these new Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked bullets.
Now, admittedly I have a vested interest in the success of these new bullets so please bare that in mind if I come across overly optimistic or bias.
First off I'll start by listing some details about these New Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked cast lead bullets.
(1) These Boat-Tailed bullets weigh an average of 206 grains with a hardness level hovering at about 18-20 tested BHN. (these are the ones without the Synthetic-Tips)
(2) The Plain Base Gas-Checked bullets of the same profile weighed an average of 200 grains with a hardness level averaging about 12 BHN. (W/O Synthetic-Tips)
(3) The first target pictured below shows the preliminary bunch of shots taken to sight in with the heavier bullets. I was shooting my Scoped K31. It had been previously sighted in for the Lyman 130 grain plain base GC bullets.
Both the Plain Base and the Boat-Tailed bullets were hitting about 6 inches low before adjustments were made on my scope.
I had a hard wind moving from back to front with some pretty good gusts slapping me in the back periodically. Since it was back to front I didn't think it would affect the outcome too badly. And it really didn't; at least not enough for me to be able to use it as an excuse for any bad shoots-manship on my part.
At first glance, and for the most part the bullets flew straight, as long as the powder charge was sufficient to stabilize them.
The second target pic shows what I mean by, "A Powder Charge Sufficient to Stabilize them." Sixteen grains of 2400 was enough to stabilize the Plain Base Gas-Checked bullets but, it was NOT enough to stabilized the Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked bullets.
Upon closer inspection, the targets showed a slight wobble in nearly all of the Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked bullets even with powder charges up to 17.5 grains.
The peculiar thing was that not all of the shots; even at the higher charge weights; showed signs of wobble. (most of them did though) This tells me that there is more than likely something else going on other than just not having enough velocity to stabilize the bullets; like perhaps, Machining-Inconsistencies.
These signs of a wobble in flight or on impact made me wonder if maybe these bullet might have stabilized if they had been shot at a target 200 or more yards away; or, would that longer distance have allowed the bullets to slow down enough to further de-stabilize.
It's clear that more testing is needed. Next time around I'll try powders and charge weights more in line with the minimum 308 winchester reloading data.
On a positive note: I was concerned that the beveled tails of these Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks might cause the hot gasses of the burning gun-powder to funnel toward the outsides of the bullets and induce gas-cutting. I got no leading of any kind with the Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks in place.
The thing that's been gnawing at me for some time now; even before I started this project, has been the inaccuracy of my metal lathe. I knew going into this that I had to have as close to prefect concentricity as I could get. I also knew that my little chinese bench lathe left alot to be desired in that area.
I've been saving up for a few years now to buy one of those Grizzly Gunsmithing Lathes that I've researched on the internet. At the same time, I've also put feelers out for a good used South Bend Lathe that only needs to be plugged in without any restoration or repair. I've come up short on the South Bend so far. I've been holding out as long as I can.
One of the things that's helped me hold out for the Good Used older American made lathe is the fact the new Gunsmithing lathe I've had my eye on comes without an electrical cord or electrical plug and only has enough oil to do a short "Break-In," after which you have to change out the existing oil for the oil it will be running on. It's kind of like selling a candle without a wick. Wicks cost extra.
OK, I'm starting to ramble off subject now so I'll stop here and post the pics.
I'll be back to answer any questions later.
HollowPoint
Last edited by HollowPoint; 04-30-2013 at 05:26 PM.
I've had a few days to mull over my results from this testing phase.
It occurs to me that if the "Wobble" in my bullets is caused by "Machining Inaccuracies," (and I believe it is) further testing of these particular bullets will inevitably lead to more of the same results; or at least skewed results.
I've decided to start from scratch. With the lessons I've learned thus far from making the dies to making the Cherries to making the bullet mold, I think I've got enough of a handle on this project to be able to put together a very usable end product for myself. That "End Product" being, a long range capable Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked, Synthetic-Tipped Cast Lead Bullet for my 30 caliber rifles.
As far as the inaccuracy problems I've been facing with my current bench-top lathe is concerned, I plan to order a new metal lathe some time this month. My attempts to hold out for a good used South Bend American made metal lathe isn't panning out for me so now it's just a matter of waiting until my second choice in metal lathes is back in stock at the vendor who sells them. It would also be nice to find a discount coupon from that vendor if I can.
In my initial post on this thread I mentioned something to the effect that I wanted to make sure that, "I wasn't just chasing farts in the wind." I considered these Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks a good idea and I already knew that the Synthetic-Tips worked, I just wanted to be sure that the combination of these two add-ons worked together.
I'm now completely convinced that such a bullet will work; along with the Synthetic-Bullet-Tips. Once I take delivery of the new metal lathe in question, my plan of action will be to turn a few more Cherries. This time I want to proportion them to give me a cast bullet of about 150-165 grains.
I've asked Miha over at Mihec bullet molds for some advice on how to get my mold cavities as shiny-smooth as he is able to get on his molds. He's been nice enough to reply with some insight. He'll be emailing me some more info on that when he gets the chance.
In the mean time I thought I'd give everyone a heads-up. This thread may lay dormant for few days before I can post any further updates. Once I get going again I'll resurrect this thread.
As always, your insights and replies are welcome.
On a related matter and as a side note: I'm looking for a Discount Coupon from Grizzly Industrial Machines. Can one of you guys point me in the right direction?
Thanks to one and all. I'll be back.
HollowPoint
Good news and bad new; if it can really be called "Bad News."
I ordered my new Gunsmithing Lathe today. It should be here in a few days. And then it should take a few more days to set it up.
Just getting it in the door should be a major undertaking but, I'm slowly moving forward to the completion of this Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks project.
The "Bad News" I eluded to is the fact that with a little more accuracy out of my lathe, this leaves me with no more excuses about "Accuracy" being the culprit in the lack of concentricity of my cast bullets and molds; or Cherries for that matter.
Yesterday I had a little free time while I waited for an in-bound customer. I started another set of mold blocks but, had to stop when the customer pulled up.
I'll be back when I get set up again.
HollowPoint
Just a short update on the status of this project; I'm still waiting on my new lathe to arrive.
In the mean time I've been cleaning up my little 9x19 grizzly lathe. I placed a for-sale ad on
craigslist on Friday of last week. I have a guy coming over to look at it today.
Wouldn't you know it? As I was doing some last minute cleaning of this little lathe the Start-Capacitor
that gets the motor of this lathe up to speed when you power up just gave up the ghost.
Now in addition to waiting for my new lathe, I'm now waiting on the replacement part for the smaller lathe.
It's a quick and easy fix. The hard part is waiting for that replacement Start-Capacitor to arrive.
I'll be using the funds from the sale of my previous lathe to buy the electrical cord and plug that isn't included
in the purchase of the new larger lathe. Also, I'll need to buy the two different types of oil I'll be needing to
run the machine. On top of that, I'll have to rent a pallet-jack and an engine hoist to get it inside and put it
all together. Any residual funds will be used to buy a couple of additional tool-holders and tooling; and metal stock.
Sometimes progress doesn't feel like progress but, I've heard that good things come to those who wait.
For those of you who are waiting for the conclusion of this Boat-Tailed Gas-Check project, I'll be back.
HollowPoint
My new lathe finally showed up today but, it appears that the freight company (UPS) lost my stands. Now I have a huge and heavy box sitting at the entrance of my carport.
I don't want to go down and rent the tools I'll need until the rest of my order gets here. No sense in paying twice. I'd rather have it all here so I can set things up all at once; if possible.
In trying to think of the correct description of what I'm feeling right now I think it's Happy-Frustration. After 4 years of saving my pennies to upgrade to a larger lathe, I finally achieved that goal. That makes me happy. The fact that I'm missing some major pieces of this dream is frustrating; very frustrating.
In spite of this, I can still see the forward progress taking place here.
I shall return.
HollowPoint
I just found this thread and have been reading intently. Sounds like one hell of a cool project and I commend you for your bullheadedness to keep on keepin' on!
As a budding (and over the hill) machinist wannabe I would love to take on something like this, but I have the same mill as you and I think the light weight and inherent lack of accuracy is a big handicap. Weight and stability are our friends when it comes to metal cutting machines. I wish i could afford one but Social Insecurity doesn't get me very far these days!
I wanted that same gunsmith lathe from Grizzly but it is too big to get into my basement where I have to have my shop. I settled on the G9972 Grizzly and that was borderline impossible to get down a flight of stairs and around a tight corner. I love the lathe as it is very tight and accurate for its price. I upgraded from a Smithy 1220 XL that I had for years and it served me well, except for the mill part, that was absolutely worthless. I would have removed the mill part, but left it attached just for the added weight.
Enough of that. I will be watching and reading for your progress and wish nothing but the best of results to you. And enjoy that new Grizzly, you are one lucky man to finally have your dream!
Take care,
Tom
Thank you tweigenant; I appreciate the encouragement.
The shipping company called last night to tell me that they found my missing parts. I really don't think they lost them at all.
I think that the driver was just angling for a tip on the down-low. He struck me as that sort of fellow. I've never had a driver
deliver anything to me with the attitude this guy had.
Any way, those missing parts are supposed to be delivered today between 1:00 and 6:00 PM. That's a huge window of time for me. It means I have to take another day off of work in case he shows up earlier rather than later.
I took the opportunity to wire up the lathe while I'm waiting. It doesn't come with a cord or plug for that matter. I hope I did it right. I'm electrically-retarded when it comes to things like this; even with a diagram in front of me. I haven't messed any wiring up yet on any of the other machines I've worked on so I guess that's a good thing. I can't wait for things to get back to normal around here.
Thanks again.
HollowPoint
im glued to this thread, not only am I interested in the btgc's but also wondering about the new lathe. im looking at buying one "G4009G" and im interested in your thoughts on your new lathe. what model did you get? keep up the determined work.
Greetings jasent:
I got the Grizzly G4003G Gunsmith 12x36 lathe.
The lathe stands that were lost finally showed up but, my brother who was supposed to come by and help me bring it in and set it up didn't show up.
In the end I had to bring it in and set it up all by myself. It's now set up and waiting its "break-in" run. Unfortunately I can't do that right now because I have to work today. I'm booked solid for the next three weeks. And another reason is because my new lathe has been factory-upgraded just enough that some of the oil-change features no longer look like the images on the users manual.
I don't know how to tell when I've filled the oil reservoir the right level.
Once I've performed the initial break-in procedure, I'm not sure how to drain the oil in order to refill it with fresh oil. They've moved the drain plugs for the Head-Stock and the Apron and I just don't want to take the chance of damaging my brand new lathe by running it with little or no oil in the Head-Stock.
I've also ordered some inexpensive DROs that I want to install before I fire it up for the first time.
This Boat-Tailed Gas-Check project is moving in the right direction. It's just doing so at a snails pace right now. I plan on calling Grizzly customer support at lunch time today. I suspect the telephone wait time will be longer than getting the actual answers I'm needing to move forward.
Thanks for the inquiry. I hope to be writing about Boat-Tailed Gas-Check subject matter again soon; rather than being off on these machinery tangents.
I'll be back.
HollowPoint
My mistake. That's the model im looking at. I'm very interested it these boat tail boolits I'm a long range shooter and would love to shoot cast in my 300wm. Would love to see if they will shoot 400-600yards and stay stable. What twist is your k31?
If I'm not mistaken, K31s have a 1 in 10.6" twist.
I too was hoping to get these Boat-Tailed Gas-Checked bullets to shoot well out to 500 yards. On my next bullet mold I'm hoping to get the weight of my "As Cast" bullets down to between 150-165 grains. I'm also toying with a possible Paper-Patched Boat-Tailed Gas-Check bullet mold for even longer ranges. One thing at a time though.
I want to get this project done first before I move on to something else.
I've shot 200 grain Spitzer plain base Gas-Check cast bullets out to 200 yards with stellar results. They seemed to stay stabilized out to that distance. I don't think they would have remained stabilized out past three hundred yards though.
With a slightly lighter and faster cast bullet wearing a Boat-Tail as apposed to a Plain-Base, I think it's doable.
I got a chance to speak to one of the Grizzly customer service guys. It seems that they moved the oil drain plug to the other side of the Head-Stock and hid it behind a cover. Once I got that squared away I went ahead and fired up the lathe. Everything appears to be working as it should.
If I can get my present job done a little early tomorrow, I might be able to drive down to the outlet where I get my metal stock and get the ball rolling again. Things are looking up.
HollowPoint
we're all rooting for ya
Just a short update:
As we all know by now, the actual Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks are done. They have been for a while now and the feasibility of this type of specialty Gas-Check has (in my opinion) been proven to work.
What I'm doing now is setting up my new metal lathe to turn a couple more Cherries for my latest attempt at making a bullet mold to accommodate these new Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks. With this new more accurate lathe, I'm left with no more excuses about turning concentric Cherries which in turn should give me more precise bullet molds.
A couple of days ago I got done with my scheduled work early so I drove down to the metal-store to buy the metal stock I'd need to get this project going again. Yesterday I finished my work early again so I was able to use the afternoon to install the DRO's that I'd ordered last week. Today I have a free day so I'm going to CNC-Mill some tool holders for my new lathe.
The lathe came with a Quick-Change Tool-Post but just one Tool-Holder. I happened to have some aluminum stock left over from when I was making a scope mount for my K31. I can whittle it down to the dimensions I need for making five more Quick-Change Tool-Holders. Those five Tool-Holders will include a Holder for my Parting-Tool and one for my Boring-Bars. The remainder will hold my standard 1/2" shank cutting tools. If bought online, these Tool-Holders cost $32.50 plus shipping. By making my own I'll save myself about a hundred-and-fifty bucks after buying the needed set-screws.
I'll also be making a couple of "Stops" for the Apron on this machine. For a novice lathe user, this should go a long way toward helping with accuracy issues.
This project is still alive.
I also wanted to give a shout-out to Miha/Mihec. I asked him for some insight and wisdom on how to get a better finish on my bullet mold cavities. I wasn't to crazy about the rough finish I had gotten before on my preceding bullet molds. Mihec was kind enough to send out some literature that should prove to be helpful.
I'll be back in a couple days with more updates.
HollowPoint
I don't play much on the gas check forum. I've been missing some cool stuff!
The ability to boattail has some interesting possibilities for us casters for a couple reasons.
One of the problems plaguing .308 Winchester shooters in general and M1A/M14 shooters in particular has been flight characteristics going completely to hell somewhere between 800 and 1000 yards. This is caused by the radical changes in airflow over the bullet as it crosses from supersonic to subsonic flight. You'll remember that Chuck Yeager had smooth flight coming up to the sound barrier, and smooth flight after punching through, but his X1 was jerking all over the place at the transitional speeds. Same kind of thing in reverse with bullets. Much like fighter planes, overall bullet shape can affect performance in this area. A boattail can only help with keeping clean airflow during the transition. A brainiac I used to shoot with theorized that faster rates of twist would be beneficial as well, as the faster gyroscope would better resist fishtailing. His idea was that the right bullet/twist combination could coast comfortably down through the sound barrier and then proceed to coast predictably to the limit of its range. He did a fair amount of successful testing with it as I recall before we lost touch.
What makes this boattailing interesting for casters is that we spend a lot of time in those not-terribly-impressive velocity ranges. Yes, we get supersonic, but not by enough to stay there for very long, and our boolits aren't designed - unless by happy accident - to remain stable through the transsonic zone. Not normally a problem because most of us aren't shooting far enough for it to become an issue.
My thought is that a boolit with less of a needle-like nose (i.e. Berger), shaped instead with a front end more like the tip of the Space Shuttle's external fuel tank would have its weight more evenly distributed and better resist transsonic wobble. The big buffalo rifle boolits already do this. Happily, even the pointy cast slugs typically aren't all that pointy. Couple the best of these nose profiles with a boattail that is effectively designed for reducing drag in subsonic flight. Since the force of air resistance on the nose decreases as speed decreases, such a pill could hold onto the velocity we give it for a LOOOOOOOONG time. The dropoff in trajectory at increasing distance might not be nearly as extreme as we are used to seeing. Suddenly, the .30-30 might no longer be the pokey 100Y brush gun we normally think of.
And now, Mr. Hollowpoint, you have something new to think about. Carry on with the good work.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
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