Paper Patching a .44 Mag and .444

[no34570]

Black jaque
I have been told and have seen that crimp is not very good for paper-patched bullets,when I loaded my first lot up for the 45/70 in my No3 and I crimped them,they where all over the place,but then I just left the crimp right out of the process and it improved a hell of a lot.

I have not been able to do anymore with paper-patching for sometime(Family) keeps me busy,even to go out hunting and thats not good.
Thanks for your take on this and your help,good on ya mate
cheers
no34570

[longbow]

Well, I had a nice long reply going and somehow lost it!?! I was probably repeating myself anyway.

Mostly it was about boolit diameter.

I find it confusing that the general recommendations I have found are:

- as cast boolit at or slightly under bore diameter for BP with "soft" boolits - in fact many sources say that the finished patched boolit should push into the barrel by hand, so not much above groove diameter patched

- as cast diameter at or slightly larger than bore diameter for smokeless and "hard" boolits

The reasoning seems to be that BP will bump a boolit up to fill the grooves while smokeless won't - of course soft and hard lead will play a part here too.

What I don't understand is that if using a bore + diameter hard boolit and patching to groove diameter works with smokeless then why wouldn't it work for BP? I guess more accurately, why would you want to allow the boolit to "bump" up and give it a chance to do that unevenly?

I'm not going to argue (nor am I qualified to) as to whether this works or not - obviously it does but since the boolit "bumps" up to fill the grooves anyway what is the benefit? All I can think of is maybe with BP a slightly undersize boolit accomodates some fouling in the throat.

Anyway, my experience is with .30 cal (0.303 British and .308 Win) amd .44 Mag Marlin with smokeless loads and moderately hard boolits of ACWW and range scrap.

So far I have found that the .303 and .308 seem to like boolits of about bore diameter as cast and no less than groove diameter after patching.

The .303 seems to like 0.303"/0.304" as cast and patched to about 0.314" for 0.314" groove diameter.

The 0.308 has shot an as cast 0.301" boolit patched to 0.316" well - so mucho oversize. The 0.303 doesn't seem to like much over groove diameter.

The .44 mag Marlin as said before shoots well with 0.421" as cast boolit and patched to 0.432"/0.433". I will try a little larger as cast at 0.424"/0.425" to see how it goes.

Both my 0.308 and .44 mag have shallow rifling (roughly 0.004" and 0.0024" respectively) and the 0.303 British is quite deep. The shallower rifling seems to prefer a boolit patched somewhat oversize while the .303 with deeper rifling (about 0.006") sems to like the boolit patched to about groove diameter.

Well, I guess this was a long post after all.

I hope it helped.

Longbow

[no34570]

Longbow
Thanks for all that,I was interested in the .303 patching that you had done,my 44 mag is in a Rossi 92 and my Marlin 444(yes,I finally got one)is in the micro-grooved version.

I found out when I patched my Ruger #3 in 45/70 that it did not like too much oversize with the patch,i went .451 bullet cast from CBE mould,a paper-patch mould and wrapped with onionskin paper that I got from Buffalo Arms in the US,to just over .458 and it loved it.
I just did not know what the bore size is for the 44 mag and 444 Marlin,but now I have something to work with and will also slug my bores.
Thanks mate,much appreciated
Dale
no34570

[no34570]

Well
I slugged the bore of my 444 Marlin with the 1:38 Twist,it's bore .423 -.424 groove .4305
I was wondering,could I get some .427 dia moulds or some .429-.430 that I have on hand and size them down to say .424 or even .423 an then wrap them?

Dale
no34570

[no34570]

I must of had a brain fart

There is no sizing dies for .423-424 made,not that I know of

Anyone?
Dale
no34570.

[no34570]

I forgot,who is the bloke on this forum that makes the sizing dies?,I can't remember his name,anyone know?

I'm wonderin if I can get him to make me up a .423-.424 sizing die?
But then it has to be sent to Australia.

Hope someone can help?
Cheers

Dale
no34570

[Maven]

Dale, That would be Buckshot. PM him to see whether he'll make a die for you.

[no34570]

Dale, That would be Buckshot. PM him to see whether he'll make a die for you.

Maven
That's the bloke I should have remembered
Will do
Thanks for that
Dale
no34570

[ktw]

What I don't understand is that if using a bore + diameter hard boolit and patching to groove diameter works with smokeless then why wouldn't it work for BP? I guess more accurately, why would you want to allow the boolit to "bump" up and give it a chance to do that unevenly?

As I understand it, soft, patched-to-bore-diameter bullets are preferred with black powder loads as a strategy for dealing with the black powder fouling.

If you use hard, patched-to-groove-diameter bullets with black powder loads you may have a hard time chambering the second round. Even if you do get it chambered it's likely to damage the patch in the process.

-ktw

[longbow]

I kind of wondered if fouling might be the issue with black powder. Didn't make sense to me otherwise.

Thanks ktw.

Longbow

[no34570]

Longbow wrote:

The .44 mag Marlin as said before shoots well with 0.421" as cast boolit and patched to 0.432"/0.433". I will try a little larger as cast at 0.424"/0.425" to see how it goes.

Hey Longbow
Have you tried the .424/.425 diameter boolits yet?
Would be interested to find out your results when you have them on hand

I got Buckshot to make me a .424 diameter sizing die for me,later on I will get him to make one up for the .303Brit in .304,the .307 Win in .301 and a .426 for my 44 mag amd also maybe a few others I want to play around with.
Hope to hear from you soon

Dale
no34570

[longbow]

no34570:

Well, I sort of did and sort of didn't. I knurled a few to increase diameter and did some shooting but I don't recall if the targets were better, worse or the same as with the smaller boolit. I had actually forgotten about this as I have been preoccupied with some things other than shooting lately and what is about shooting is about shotgun slugs and cast boolit loads for the .303. I get myself tied up in too many projects and get distracted.

I did collect some paper patching after shooting the .44 and it looked very good with ribs impressed into it from the knurling (annular grooves actually). I will try to remember to look up some targets. If you don't hear from me in a few days send me a reminder.

If I didn't keep the targets I will be loading and shooting again in a week or two so I will make sure I do a comparison for you.

Sorry about that, I skipped a groove.

One other thought if I haven't mentioned it is that the larger .303 boolits were knurled and the knurling may also have contributed to better grip between boolit and paper so that maybe contributed as much as increased boolit diameter.

Anyway, I will try to get some results for you.

Again, my apologies for forgetting and not getting this sorted out.

Longbow

[martinibelgian]

BP and PP:
There are 2 schools - 1 takes an undersize bullet, and patches it up to land diameter, relying on bullet bump-up. The other uses a land-diameter naked bullet, to be patched up to groove diameter. Both will work, but the 1st method will allow you to seat the bullet further out, keeping more powder capacity i nthe case. The 2nd one is more tolerant of harder lead. Both will work given consistent fouling management.

[no34570]

Longbow
You don't have to apologize for forgetting mate,I do that all the time
When ya are ready just post what you find and it will be appreciated.

I heard of putting your un-patched bullets between two flat mill(Bastard no thats what they call them,honest) files and rolling the bullet between them,so will try that as well.



Cheers mate
Dale
no34570