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Thread: Paper Patching a .44 Mag and .444

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Paper Patching a .44 Mag and .444

    Hi ya
    I want to paper patch bullets for my .44 Mag Rossi M92 and also the .444 Marlin(I have not got the rifle yet).
    What size do you think I should start off with?,I was thinking of a bullet around the .423 mark,any suggestions?
    What is the nominal bore size for the .44 Mag and .444 Marlin?
    I suppose I could get some under size molds and use them,or even a PP mold from NEI or Cast Bullet Engineering here in Australia.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    Cheers
    no34570

  2. #2
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    Paper Patch

    www.shilohrifle.com/forums has a lot of information on paper patch. Look for Kurt and Orville especially.

    A new book by Randolph Wright, LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE, will probably become the "bible" for PP. It's extremely well written and profusely illustrated. Orville Loomer has a smaller book available from Shiloh also. Paul Matthews THE PAPER JACKET is also worth reading, but may be out of print. Mike Venturino has done some articles in RIFLE or HANDLOADER.

    PP is getting a lot of interest for the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE shooters. It's a lost technology, but some serious researchers are "re-inventing the wheel" and finding the accuracy and efficiency secrets thought to be lost. There were several people shooting PP at the Quigley Rifle Shoot at Forsyth, MT--every year a few more.


  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    I haven't paper patched anything yet. BTW, there are many threads here on this subject, so a search may edimicate you very well. IIRC, you size yer boolit about .002" under BORE (not groove) diameter and get a paper about .003" thick (25 lb. type paper) and cut it to make two complete wraps- with the ends tapered about 30 degrees in a trapezoid shape. Wide enough to make the corners at the butt end, and the shoulder or front driving band. Size the finished product about .002". I think the paper should be wet, and allowed to dry after wrapping. Then you lube the paper with a lube, or wax before sizing. Muy bueno for hunting loads with soft lead, and BP to clean fouling from the bore in repeated shots.

    There is the chapter in Harrison's "Cast Bullets" book from the NRA on paper patching as another source of info.

    That being said, teflon plumber's tape wrapped around the boolit twice does the same thing. Boolits will still deform at high pressures, so your alloy needs to be hard enough to withstand pressures that you choose to use with both methods or accuracy will go south.

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    The abrupt rifling leade angles in most levergun throats (and in my Ruger #1/45-70) can really screw up PP jackets. The result was the most leaded-up barrel I've ever dealt with, bushed down to about 42 caliber. On the other side, some #358430's wrapped to .367" shot WONDERFULLY in my 9.3 x 62.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDK View Post
    www.shilohrifle.com/forums has a lot of information on paper patch. Look for Kurt and Orville especially.

    A new book by Randolph Wright, LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE, will probably become the "bible" for PP. It's extremely well written and profusely illustrated. Orville Loomer has a smaller book available from Shiloh also. Paul Matthews THE PAPER JACKET is also worth reading, but may be out of print. Mike Venturino has done some articles in RIFLE or HANDLOADER.

    PP is getting a lot of interest for the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE shooters. It's a lost technology, but some serious researchers are "re-inventing the wheel" and finding the accuracy and efficiency secrets thought to be lost. There were several people shooting PP at the Quigley Rifle Shoot at Forsyth, MT--every year a few more.

    EDK
    Thanks for the reply,that new book of Randolph Wright,I have just got but have not had time to read it yet(just got it Friday) and I have THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthews,great book.
    Had a quick look around at Shilo Forums,very good will keep me busy looking for info.
    I paper -Patch already for my 45/70 with very good results,but the .44 Mag and .444 Marlin are new to me,hence why I wanted to know the bore size.
    I get the bore size and groove diameter mixed up
    Thanks for your time mate
    Cheers
    no34570

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    I haven't paper patched anything yet. BTW, there are many threads here on this subject, so a search may edimicate you very well. IIRC, you size yer boolit about .002" under BORE (not groove) diameter and get a paper about .003" thick (25 lb. type paper) and cut it to make two complete wraps- with the ends tapered about 30 degrees in a trapezoid shape. Wide enough to make the corners at the butt end, and the shoulder or front driving band. Size the finished product about .002". I think the paper should be wet, and allowed to dry after wrapping. Then you lube the paper with a lube, or wax before sizing. Muy bueno for hunting loads with soft lead, and BP to clean fouling from the bore in repeated shots.

    There is the chapter in Harrison's "Cast Bullets" book from the NRA on paper patching as another source of info.

    That being said, teflon plumber's tape wrapped around the boolit twice does the same thing. Boolits will still deform at high pressures, so your alloy needs to be hard enough to withstand pressures that you choose to use with both methods or accuracy will go south.
    Leftiye
    Thanks too mate for replying,I know all that what you posted,but just want to know what is the bore size for .44 mag and .444 Marlin,for I cannot find it anywhere,would it be .429?or is that the groove size?,I get them mixed up
    I plan to use smokeless powder and maybe every now and then a bit of black.
    Cheers mate
    no34570

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    The abrupt rifling leade angles in most levergun throats (and in my Ruger #1/45-70) can really screw up PP jackets. The result was the most leaded-up barrel I've ever dealt with, bushed down to about 42 caliber. On the other side, some #358430's wrapped to .367" shot WONDERFULLY in my 9.3 x 62.
    9.3x62AL
    Thanks for replying,I have a Ruger No3 in 45/70 that I paper patch and find that the throat does not effect my patches and I get good accuracy out of it.
    I used a Cast Bullet Engineering PP mold (adjustable) to cast my bullets,load is as follows
    325gr CBE PP (Pure Lead)
    51.0gr ADI AR-2208
    Winchester cases and primers,shot with sandbags on a rest with a 2x7x40 scope and the best I could get after 2 hours of shooting was a grouping of 1.42 inches at nearly 100meters(93.5)Still was unburned powder in the barrel so was going to a faster powder,which I have not done yet.
    I intend to PP for all my guns,.44 mag (Rossi L/A) .444 Marlin (When I get it) 3 of my .303 British,45/70,.356 Win and .307 Win as well as using cast/lubed bullets.
    Thanks again mate
    Cheers
    no34570

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    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    Slug your bore and size your bullets .0005 to .001 over bore dia. I patch with 16lb green bar computer paper. I have 3 lever actions and all love paper patch bullets.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    34570, To measure your bore diameter you can use small hole gauges (pin gauges) for clarity I'm referring to cylindrical gauge blocks, not the adjustable small hole gauges. Simply keep working up or down in size until the next one larger won't go in.

    Alternatively, get a rod with a slight taper and put it in the muzzle. Mark where it stops and measure with your mike on the small side of the mark and the edge of the anvils on the mark. This will work fine unless your muzzle is worn/tapered.

    If you have even numbered rifling so that you can mesure the bottom of two opposing lands (grooves on a slug), then slug the barrel and measure the grooves with a good caliper. With S&W 5 groove rifling it's a little harder, but you acn get real close by measuring the grooves as close to directly across from each other as possibele (at the right side of one groove, and the left side of the other.

    Also, you can measure individual land heights from a slug with a mike or caliper or mike, and subtract twice that measurement from your groove diameter.
    Last edited by leftiye; 07-30-2007 at 02:04 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    34570, To measure your bore diameter you can use small hole gauges (pin gauges) for clarity I'm referring to cylindrical gauge blocks, not the adjustable small hole gauges. Simply keep working up or down in size until the next one larger won't go in.

    Alternatively, get a rod with a slight taper and put it in the muzzle. Mark where it stops and measure with your mike on the small side of the mark and the edge of the anvils on the mark. This will work fine unless your muzzle is worn/tapered.

    If you have even numbered rifling so that you can mesure the bottom of two opposing lands (grooves on a slug), then slug the barrel and measure the grooves with a good caliper. With S&W 5 groove rifling it's a little harder, but you acn get real close by measuring the grooves as close to directly across from each other as possibele (at the right side of one groove, and the left side of the other.

    Also, you can measure individual land heights from a slug with a mike or caliper or mike, and subtract twice that measurement from your groove diameter.
    Leftiye
    Thanks for replying,well I put a 44/40 J boolit & lubed it down the bore of my Rossi 92 .44 Mag and it was a snug fit,it would not fall down by itself,but when I got a wooden dowel I pressed it down the bore and it went down pretty easy with just me pushing down on it,when it came out the end in the chamber and I picked it up,it was just slightly marked by the bore(A couple of scratches).
    Now the 44/40 is I think around the .426 diameter,would that be right?
    My calipers battery was flat and I have not got another one yet
    So you reckon by this go for a .426 diameter slug and paper patch it or go for a .427 diameter slug?
    Cheers
    no34570

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdawg_shooter View Post
    Slug your bore and size your bullets .0005 to .001 over bore dia. I patch with 16lb green bar computer paper. I have 3 lever actions and all love paper patch bullets.
    pdawg
    Thanks mate
    What sort of levers do you have? (not that it matters,they are all good)and what calibers do you have?
    Cheers
    no34570

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    A commercial source for newly manufactured onion skin,you can go to a web sight by the name of The Papermill Store.
    http://www.thepapermillstore.com/pro...productid=9304
    DUST

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Hey Dust
    Thanks for the link,cheap to(even though it's in US dollars)Buffalo arms are selling 100% cotton paper(9lb) US $14.00 per 100 sheets I think.
    I have enough 25% 9lb onion skin paper for at least the next 5 years.
    Thanks again
    no34570

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    no34570:

    I made a simple push out mould that I have used successfully. If you have a lathe or know someone with a lathe it is easy to make and .44 is big enough to use a boring bar then hone.

    I cast to 0.421" then paper patch to 0.433" for a Marlin 1894 microgroove with groove diameter of 0.4315". It has a fairly large throat and I have loaded cast boolits up to 0.436" with no problem chambering. Paper patched boolits seem to need to be near groove diameter though to shoot well.

    I have used several different types of paper with pretty good success - tracing paper at about 0.002", drafting velum at 0.004" and bond at 0.005" depending on boolit diameter and groove diameter. So far I have paper patched for 0.308 Winchester, .303 British, .44 Marlin and 12 gauge with a Lyman Foster slug.

    I like the way the tracing paper wraps but it is thin so maybe another couple thou bigger would be good with the .44 boolits (say 0.423") or an extra wrap of the thinner paper adds about 0.003" to 0.004".

    One thing I have noticed is that my mould makes a smooth sided slug and I was having trouble with the .303 British with that slug until I rolled grooves on it. I made a groove roller for another project so gave it a try on the .303 slugs and accuracy improved. I haven't tried it on the .44 slugs yet as they seem to shoot well but possibly the extremely shallow microgroove rifling plays a part here as it would be easy on the patch.

    I will also try grooving the smooth .44 slugs which increases diameter by about 0.003" then paper patch with thin paper to groove diameter.

    So far I have found that the Marlin seems to like paper patched at or a little above groove diameter and the .303 likes paper patched at groove diameter or 0.001" or so less. My guess is that throat diameter, rifling depth and leade play a significant role here.

    Another comment I guess is that I had loaded similar designed un-patched boolits and worked up loads to loading table max. I used these same loads with paper patched boolits - 21 gr. H110 with 300 gr. paper patched and 24 gr. IMR 4227 with 250 gr. paper patched.

    Also, all .44 boolits were ACWW/range scap mix - hardness appears to be a little less than ACWW but I don't have a hardness tester... yet.

    Hardly definitive work and testing continues but maybe this will help.

    Longbow

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    Use a lead ball or the bullet of about .430 diameter. If you're a little short on that, put it on a flat surface and tap it with a hammer lightly. It will grow a bit and serve your purpose. Use a soft face mallet to start the slug into the muzzle, then push it thru with a rod and flat tipped jag.

    You will find some variation in bore/groove dims. with the .44. My own is .422/.430 (Ruger Rifle) My loads work well in a Ruger Red Hawk and patched loads work well thru lever guns in general in my experience. If you load with soft alloy or pure lead the dims. won't be that critical for the .44. Pressures are high enough the bullets will obturate sufficiently for fine accuracy. You may run into some issues of stripping with pure lead above 1600 fps...or not. You'll find out when you get there. No roll crimp fella, get yourself a taper crimp if you want this to work out. Li'l Gun and card wads help a .44 sing out of a rifle. If you have a fast enough twist I recommend a 300 grain bullet for the endeavor. Recoil will be....crisp.

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    The toughest and most durable paper I've found is 100% rag drafting vellum in E-size sheets. Cut the strips from the end, not the side of the sheet so you can get some stretch as you roll it on and make the ends meet up perfectly. It's usually .0025 thick and 2 wraps stretched on wet will give you just under .010 increase in diameter. If possible, I'd start with a boolit .010 under groove dia., apply two wraps, let dry, and a single layer of quality teflon tape over the paper (not the 5 rolls/$1 stuff). Anoint with a smear of soft boolit lube, size .001-.002 over groove dia. (which embeds the teflon in the paper) and seat, possibly over a card wad/lube cookie for a healthy lube star on the muzzle. Paint the seated boolit with Lee Liquid Alox and it'll be just about water proof for field use.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Well, this one was water proof without the Alox. Loads be 4 yrs and 4 months old. 300 gr. pure, RNFB w/cardwad over 17.0 grains of Li'l Gun.



    Hit the right foreleg bone, 3" of rib missing behind that and cleaned off the heart plumbing. Another rib on the offside and lodged in that shoulder. 259 grains recovered. Two hours in the rain before the shot.

  18. #18
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    Well, I haven't patched for a .44 but I have patched for my .357 magnum Rossi M92.

    It works. I can't say that I equal the best accuracy of a copper-clad bullet or even my most accurate nekid cast boolits, but I have seen minute-of-beer-can accuracy.

    I use a 158 grain boolit and 17.4 grains Lil' Gun. They really whistle.

    HERE'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER: If you're gonna patch for a tube-fed lever action take into consideration the charge density and the amount of crimp! If you aren't running 100% load density and you do not crimp, you could push the bullets in the cases when you load 'em in the tube.

    Also, my Rossi jams without crimping. I've found that if I use a regular grooved bullet I can crimp right over the crimp groove and it doesn't cut the patch. I will put a good bevel on the inside of the casemouth too.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Dan View Post
    Use a lead ball or the bullet of about .430 diameter. If you're a little short on that, put it on a flat surface and tap it with a hammer lightly. It will grow a bit and serve your purpose. Use a soft face mallet to start the slug into the muzzle, then push it thru with a rod and flat tipped jag.

    You will find some variation in bore/groove dims. with the .44. My own is .422/.430 (Ruger Rifle) My loads work well in a Ruger Red Hawk and patched loads work well thru lever guns in general in my experience. If you load with soft alloy or pure lead the dims. won't be that critical for the .44. Pressures are high enough the bullets will obturate sufficiently for fine accuracy. You may run into some issues of stripping with pure lead above 1600 fps...or not. You'll find out when you get there. No roll crimp fella, get yourself a taper crimp if you want this to work out. Li'l Gun and card wads help a .44 sing out of a rifle. If you have a fast enough twist I recommend a 300 grain bullet for the endeavor. Recoil will be....crisp.
    DD
    Thanks mate,sorry that it has taken awhile to answer,been busy and such,you know how it is I'm sure?
    Next chance I get I will do what you recommended and will see what the bore is then.
    Thanks
    no34570

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Longbow
    Thanks for all your info mate,I'll use that for sure.
    I really don't know anyone with a lathe,bugger
    So .421 would that be around what the 444 would be would it?
    Thanks mate
    no34570

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check