Ruger 77/44

[AlexBC]

I'll just give a quick introduction before, I'm Alex and I'm a new bullet caster. I picked up my 77/44 because I wanted a rifle for hunting Sitka Blacktail on the Queen Charlotte Islands, now known as Haida Gwaii. It had to be stainless because of the weather, short range, have a clip(road hunting). It also had to waist less meat then my .308. I also wanted something which I could experiment to get me into reloading and casting.

So here goes my results, out of the box the rifle was nice but had a couple of quirks which came up. First was that I could not group factory ammo <4" at 50 yards which was VERY disappointing. So which the help of some snap caps toss into the magazine I traced part of it to the trigger. Lighter spring and a quick touch up on the sear and I closed up to about 2-2.5" @ 50 yards. I then put together that the shots were stringing vertically so an investigation of the stock found that it was pre-loading the barrel. I have free floated my barrel and am now in the <1.5" groups with some of my loads.

Some quick gun stats:
18.5" Barrel with 1:20 Twist slugges at .4293"
Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5 Scope with Ruger Rings

Being new I have two powders I have been experimenting with Hercules 2400 and H110. With LP and LPM primers.

Now I find the gun loves 240 JHP(.430) with 24gn H110, forgive me but I didn't start in the casting right away. It's doing 1760fps+/-10

I have also shot some 200 JHP with 26.5gn H110 which is a bit bigger group but <2"

When I shoot some of lee's 310 FP's with 15.7gn H110 it's going about 1310fps and shooting about 7" low, the same with 15.7gn of 2400, going 1420fps(The group with H110 was ~2" and the 2400 was ~3". They were sized to .429". The rate of twist seems to be able to stabilize them.

Now my real question is why the drastic drop with the big lead at 50 yards? I also tried some Speer 300 FP(18, 18.5, & 19gn H110) just to compare and had the same result; shooting being quite low. I've heard a couple of theories the main one being barrel time except they are going much slower which should translate into higher?

Please forgive me if this post is in the wrong section. It kind of became two problems in one. Also I'm looking for a second mold for .44 and thinking 240 Keith/Thompson with the gas check from Saeco or 240/280 from LBT.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

AlexBC

Welcome aboard, and interesting post.

I have thought of a RUGER rifle in .44, as I am a RUGER fan and like the rotory clips such as those in the 10 and 77/22 etc..

However, My cast boolit of current choice is a 310gr LBT Long Flat Nose (LFN) and it is too long to fit in those magazines.

Now, I have been hunting with a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast boolit in my 45/70 for the past three seasons, and have 4 deer and 2 elk taken with those cast boolits and am just soooo impressed with the put down with the WFN boolit.

I think that were I to have one of the RUGER .44 rifles, I'd attempt to find someone to make me a bullet/boolit mold with a WFN and of as close to about 180gr as I could get and still function through the rotory mag.

Short nose and crip groove placement will be considerations.

You should take the time to go to the Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) web site and read what Veral Smith has to say about bullet design and the WFN.

I think if you contacted Veral, he has likely been there and done that with designing a bullet (he doesn't like, "Boolits") for the RUGER.

His writings explain why the old semi-wadcutter bullet profile is not as effective as expected.

You might need to buy his book, "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets". Good read.

Considering where you are hunting and the fact that you might be faced with a critter having sharp claws and teeth, I'd really want something much better in my rifle then a jacketed bullet, some of which have VERY questionable integrity when my life is on the line.

There is simply nothing such as too dead and no bullet or rifle too large if faced with a critter that would like nothing better then to make a mid day snack out of that nice soft and mostly hairless two legged critter that wondered into his bed room.

See If you can find a heavier then standard WFN cast design that will function in your RUGER and you will have a real winner for your close range hunting.

Because the bullet/boolit will extend deeper into the case and thus decrease case volumn and powder capacity, this will be a consideration when considering boolit weight and powder choice and charge weight.

Bullets hitting low ------------ Well, providing you have enough scope or sight adjustment, no big issue. I am pretty much a one bullet for one rifle person with hunting firearms, so once you have found your ONE bullet and load of choice, sight in for that choice and forget the other bullets/loads.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[W.R.Buchanan]

I agree with CDOC's point on LBT. Veral has many designs that will work for you just fine. You can try out lots of his designs by going to Beartooth Bullets website. They have premade boolits that you can buy to test what works.

I have used 250gr WFNGC's (you want a GC boolit due to the speed you'll run it) in my Marlins and the accuracy is as good as you can get from a Marlin .44 Rifle. I doubt there is anything that would not die after being hit by one and I would expect complete penetration on anything up to elk. These boolits are also available in 265 and 280 gr as well as larger up to 340 gr, however the larger ones will stick out of the case further and probably won't feed in your gun. The larger ones are more directed at Ruger Redhawk Revolvers.

Lots to learn from Veral and if you call him he will tell you everything you need to know. He IS one of "Them that knows!"

These boolits have large (.340 dia) Meplats, They are nearly cylindrical with sharp edges, and unless your chamber mouth is radiused or chamfered they may hang up.

As Far as your question about boolit drop. Faster bullet shoots higher than slower bullet.

Something about that damn gravity having an affect.

Randy

[dubber123]

If your barrel slugs .429ish, I would expect much better results if you sized larger than the .429" you stated. I would recommend trying .430-.431". I bet groups tighten up for you. I would also try working your way towards a hotter load, which may help with your point of impact.

[Blammer]

big meplat bullets traveling slow will drop a bunch, barrel time is a pistol thing for rise and fall (that's My opinion/guess)

I'd go with .430 or .431 dia boolits.

I'd recommend this boolit from NOE.

I have it and it shoots great in my r77/44

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...roducts_id=224

it has the shorter nose so it will fit in the ruger mag quite well

[altheating]

I had Veral at LBT make me a custom mold for my 77/44. It shoots great out to 130 yards or so. I slugged the bore after lapping it an sent it to veral. He said it would shoot great with his design and it did. That was my first experiance with LBT and was a good one. It was the only boolit that did shoot well out of it. 2400 powder, not sure how much.

[AlexBC]

Thanks for the reply guys! I have adjusted the sights for the heaver loads and I'm getting good groups. All seems well it's just makes you scratch your head when two loads can be that far apart at 25-50 yards with the same gun/sight etc. I have been eyeing Veral's molds and agree with the wide flat nose. I have seen it's magic in a colt 45 vs my 44 jhp on a deer. I have been having great luck with imr-4227 lately.

Also I will take the advice of sizing to .430 on the next round.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

An old thread, but one in which I have a renewed interest since I how have a new to me and very fine 77/44.

Since my earlier post, I have bought a mold from Tom at Accurate Molds. 275gr Wide Flat Nose made for the .444.

However, since I size them at .431 for my son, and use that same dia. in my RedHawk, I loaded up a bunch of test loads last night using that bullet ahead of H110 and AA#9.

Hope to shoot the tests and sight in the scope this next Wed.

The 275gr works through the magazine and action just fine, unlike the heavier 310gr LBT bullet, so I hope it will shoot well.

I have already floated the barrel in the composite stock and found not only a lot of pressure at the forend, but also some contact/pressure on the left side of the stock to barrel.

The barrel is completely floated now, so hope to see some good results with the up coming tests.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Geezer in NH]

Mine has a form 1 silencer built into it love it with 44 specials.

[hicard]

I just fired a 210 gr lead hex point Miha bullet from my 44 Ruger Deerslayer (I also have a 77/44 bolt action) into fine sand and got a perfectly flat mushroom (from .611" to.269" tall) at .78 " dia. Can't ask for more. Velocity should be close to 1300 fps. with a load of 14 grs of 2400 powder. This load also works the automatic action perfectly throwing the brass at me feet instead of across the yard.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hicard,

I realize your in Califunnyia, but with a wide flat nose cast, expansion is a non-issue.

Just did the first tests yesterday with my new to me 77/44, so will get results posted,

Nothing to write home about, but some groups show promise and I'll do some more testing .

With the rifle, came some loaded rounds with IMR 4227 and a 200gr XTP H.P. and 11 rounds put 10 into just over 2" at 50yds.

So, I know the rifle will shoot to at least that level.

Shot 40rounds of test loads with H110 and AA#9 and burnt up some stuff that came with the rifle and other odds and ends of .44 mag that I had accumulated, so put 80 rounds or more down the tube.

Fun gun and with H110 and 275gr Wide Flat Nose cast bullets showing velocities over 1600fps, it will be a thumper,

1650fps is what I'm doing with my 45/70 and a 465gr WFN cast and it is ever so effective on deer and elk. I doubt that many deer will ask for seconds of rounds dished up by the .44

The trigger IS REALLY bad and the shear will soon be replaced with an after market piece. ASAP!!!!!!!!!! Really Really Really bad.

Barrel has been floated, but fire lapping is aways down the road if ever.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[altheating]

Don't forget to shim that two piece bolt. That will get you an additional 1/2" better accuracy.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Altheating,

I've read about it, but never been there and done that. Do you know the process of bolt shimming?

CDOC

[altheating]

Order shim kit. Disassemble the bolt, add enough shims so it won't close. Remove one shim and reassemble bolt. Takes all of five minutes, unless you don't know how to disassemble the bolt. I think I have done 5 or 6 of them now. 77/Hornets, 357 and 44, all of them have given much better accuracy after the shim was added. The kits are available from trigger shims.com. How to videos are listed there as well. About $10 for the kit.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

THanks!!!!!!!!!!!! That shim kit will be soon ordered along with the new trigger shear!

CDOC

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second the shim kits from Trigger shims.com . Excellent people to deal with. The 77/22 or 77/44, etc. bolts are similar to SMLE bolts (rotating bolt head with rear locking lugs) and respond very well to reducing that play in the bolt head. While you're at it, shim the parts in the trigger group as well. Be absolutely certain that you leave enough play in everything to allow 100% functioning in all conditions, in other words; don't get it too tight. I can just about guarantee you will see a reduction in group sizes.

Also I'm a fan of H110 in hot 44 mag loads. It seems to be very consistent.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK guys, thanks for the tips! The bolt shims and some trigger shims and a new trigger shear were ordered just a few hours ago and I've already rec'd notice they have been shipped.

WOW, that was quick!!!!!!!!!

Ordered double on everything and will pass one of each of the three kits on to a son for use with his 77/.357

Did get out Wed. for the tests with AA#9, and H110 behind my 275gr Wide Flat Nose cast bullet.

I think I'll not go any further with the AA#9, but the H110 is worth burning some more powder on.

The H110 gave better groups and more velocity. The best 5 shot, 50yd. group went 2 3/16" at 1644fps average velocity. The group is basically nice and round, so will go up just a bit over the 22gr. used in that load.

Also have a little bit of H4227 on hand, so will give that a try also.

The fellow that sold me this almost like new rifle, also included a few "J" bullet loads. 200gr XTP ahead of 25gr of IMR4227 and the 265gr Hornady Interlock ahead of 23gr of the IMR4227.

The 200gr XTP put 10 out of 11 shots into just a touch over 2" at the 50 yds., with most into about 1 1/2". Nice round group

The 265gr Interlock produced a vertical string.

So, I think the rifle shows promise.

The trigger is as heavy as an anchor!!!!!!!!!!!! and yes, the two piece bolt has lots!! of play.

So, get that bolt tightened up and the trigger where it needs less then a 2 ton truck to pull it off and things should improve. GREATLY!

Also noted on Triggershims.com that if a person experiences some failures to fire, getting the slop taken out of the bolt should solve that problem.

I did experience a few of those during the 80 or so rounds I fired on Wed.

All in all, had a good time getting the scope dialed in and shooting the test loads.

I'll change targets also before the next session. Print mine off the MyTargets.com web sight and found out Wed, that I get a MUCH better sight picture shooting at a solid black aiming point then I do when shooting at a white aiming point surrounded by black.

So, with that adjustment, a trigger at less then two tons pull weight and a slopless bolt, the prospects for improvement are bright.

Thanks again for the tips on the bolt shims. Really impressed that the products are already on the way. That is really fast service!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Petrol & Powder]

I noticed that Triggershims.com offers a Volquartsen sear for the 77/44. It's shown at the bottom of the page for the bolt shims http://triggershims.com/ruger_m77.html
It's a $45 part so I'd probably try to improve the trigger with other less costly methods first but it is an option.
I can't vouch for that product in a 77/44 but I can tell you that I've used Volquartsen hammers and sears in several Ruger MK II pistols and they produce outstanding results. The Ruger trigger is ok to start with and can be made better if you know how but the Volquartsen kit yields a quantum leap forward in the feel of the trigger.

As for your load development, I don't think I need to encourage you to stay with H110. I don't shoot a lot of magnums but years ago I found H110 to be the powder for my 44 and 357 mag loads. Back in those days I was using WW296 (same powder) and it came in a round can with a conical top and screw cap.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I did order the trigger sear kit and for a few bucks more, the trigger shim kit.

I checked my bolt, and there is a LOT!!! of play between the front and back half, so I can see how this would lead to inconsistency as well as the possibility of light primer strikes.

WOW, they were fast to ship the products, and they should be here Monday. Ordering yesterday, I consider that really fast service.

Plus, Lance has already sent me two follow up "E" communications and wants to have reports as to results.

Would be hard to make the trigger worse, so I think that improvement is a given with the Volquartsen sear kit.

That will really help with the groups, as I found it really hard to have a consistent release with the cross hairs where they should be.

I tried the AA#9 as it was the winner during load development with a cast 310gr Wide Flat Nose LBT bullet in a RUGER BlackHawk "Hunter" I owned some years back.

I bought an 8lb. jug of that powder back then, and have been working my way through it.

However, the 77/44 seemed to favor the H110 during these recent tests, the groups improving as the powder charged increased. I think I am within a grain of max, so will tread lightly.

I have a small amount of H4227 on hand, so will do a few tests with that and my cast 275gr.

I will also weight out my bullets for this second test series.

I have done the weighing for the last few years with the 45/70, and I believe it has tightened up the groups and decreased fliers.

For a handgun, I don't bother, and just cull visually but I'll see how it goes with the .44 rifle. Can't hurt although it may not be worth the effort. Time and groups will tell.

My wife has some impairments, so need to wait for our every other week helper before I spend part of a day at the range.

So, the upgrade parts will be here and installed before I get to the bench again.

Some folk claim fire lapping to be the "cat meow" for accuracy in these rifles. I'll jump through the other hoops before I get there if I ever do. Have done that in the past on a few firearms. Not negative effects except for the one bullet I stuck in a barrel.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Petrol & Powder]

Sounds like you've got a plan.

Good Luck !!