35 Whelen and pistol 38/357 boolits

[sthwestvictoria]

I have two 38/357 plain base moulds to try; 358-150-1R and 358-158-RF pan lubed with 70%bee wax 20% vaseline 5% lanolin, 5%crayon. Cast from ACWW with 2%tin. I have the Lee .358 push through sizer.

The rifle is a 98 Mauser, re-bored 1:14 twist, groove slugs to .356. Chamber and rifle pictures over here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...80#post2046780

I would like to use them from the 35 whelen for light plinking loads. I have not been able to find any published data so have extrapolated from the 30/06 data in the Lyman 45th book and the Lyman Cast Handbook 4th Ed.
Lyman 45th suggests for 155grain in 30/06 12.5grains of unique for 1600fps
Lyman Cast Handbook 4th suggests for 160grain in 30/06 18 grains unique for 1852fps.
Both those are fairly fast for a PB boolit so I was going to try 12.0grains of unique as a starting point with both 158grain boolit. Does that sound safe?

The other extrapolation is that I will be using Hodgdon Universal (AP70N) in place of Unique. This has been fine for 30-30 loads replacing Unique with Universal.

I will also trial Trailboss, again an extrapolation of ADI data for 30/06 suggests 150grain projectile with 13.3grains for 1061fps to 19.0grains for 1477fps. This fits in with their 70% case rule - I can get 17.5grains of Trail Boss in a Whelen case, 70% of this is
12.25grains. I have elected to start with 14.0grains of Trail Boss.

These are the projectiles with two loaded cases, showing the case filling of the AP70N and Trailboss.

The 358-150-1R will feed from the magazine when crimped in the groove, the 358-158-RF will not. I suppose in this setting I could always seat them out more but this will only increase empty case volume.

What are some thoughts on these loads - safe, sensible?

[Larry Gibson]

Start with 4 gr of Bullseye with no filler or wad. Work up in 1/2 gr increments until accuracy is what you want or it goes south. You'll probably find a good, accurate load between 800 - 1000 fps. Suggest the use of well fire formed, N'd cases.

Trail boss should work also but I've not tried it with such. My experience with PB'd pistol bullets in the 35 Rem, the 358 Win and the 35 Whelen is that best accuracy (usually 1" or so at 50 yards from a decent rifle) will be below 1200 fps, usually below 1000 fps so a fast powder that ignites consistently is needed. I had little good results when pushing PB'd cast pistol bullets over 1200 fps, especially over 1500 fps, in such rifles.

Larry Gibson

[Shooter]

I had problems with the primer backing out (shoulder set-back) with light loads in the Whelen.
This was with rifle primers. priming with pistol primers may reduce this symtom.

[sthwestvictoria]

Start with 4 gr of Bullseye with no filler or wad.
I had little good results when pushing PB'd cast pistol bullets over 1200 fps, especially over 1500 fps, in such rifles.
Larry Gibson

I have the Australian ADI powders available - the fastest would be AS30N (Hodgdon Clays) looking at the burning rate tables. Can I reduce the AP70N down to 10.0grains without emptying the case too much? Or should I cough up for some AS30N for best results. Trail boss is just under AS30N for speed.

[fecmech]

Clays is a hair faster than Bullseye but for what you're trying to do I'd follow Larry's advice and start with 4 grs and go up with the AS30N.

[Nobade]

I have had good results doing that with Red Dot, and I would think pretty much any really fast burning powder would work. Loads will likely be a little more than 4.0 grains, but that is a good place to start. Drop down to .5 gr. increments when you get close to where you want to be, it doesn't take much to go from very accurate to a leaded bore and shots all over the place.

[sthwestvictoria]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will trial the TrailBoss loads and if I am not winning will purchase some AS30N. As per the below chart from the ADI data, this is only just below bullseye in burning rate:

[uscra112]

I'll choose Red Dot over Trail Boss every day of the week and twice on Sundays. About 6 grains would be the canonical load for about 1000 fps. I'd use a 1/2" square of TP or a tuft of kapok to keep the powder toward the base of the case. Yes, by all means use a pistol primer, and maybe even open the flash hole to .080". The small shoulder of the Whelen has always been a problem that way. I had shoulder setback with very light loads in my .35 Remington until I went to pistol primers and opened the flash holes. (Obviously you would never use cases with the larger flash hole in higher powered loads.)

[357maximum]

Post #8 read it thoroughly, good info.

I had a big batch of soft tumblelubed 158Gr roundnoses from I do not know where and 7grains RED Dot + enlarged flash holes + mag pistol primers made for a very accurate critter popper/play round. I used zero filler of any sort as the faster flake powders don't seem to need them due to the "snowblower effect"...my opinion. I had a dozen pieces of brass that matched none of my other brass and I lightly marked them with a cross hatch across the headstamp using a hacksaw blade to make them readily identifiable. I had to partial full length size about every 4th shot to keep from putting too much pressure on the bolt at closing. When I was done with the brass I simply crushed it and tossed it into the recycling bucket. I now have a custom made "sleeved" 38special on an H&R topper frame I use for such things...much more efficient, but the 35W loads were fun and they worked.


I brought my whelen out one day while the nephew was here. I shot 3 full effort 220 grainers and then handed him the rifle with one of the red dot loads in it. I laughed hard on his reaction to the "POP" when he squeezed the trigger. He flinched alot less than I though he would but his facial expressing was priceless.

[swheeler]

SWVictoria: My results with 158 gr RNFP Lee in 35 Whelen have been different than others have posted here. I achieved best 50 yd accuracy at 1512fps for 5 shot groups usingf 12.0 grs of Unique, 60 rounds shot at this loading.

9-24-08- 70*F
35 Whelen, Lee 158 RNFP cast of ACWW/ these run 10-11 bn, .359 lubed with C red, seated to cannalure/crimp groove
12.0 grs of Unique
cci 200 pr/std lr
.750" @ 50 yds avg
25 fps es

Looks like AP70n and no filler needed, try it and let us know

[sthwestvictoria]

First shots through the Whelen as below. The Trail Boss sprayed them:

the AP70N shows the shadow of a group hidden in there somewhere.


No leading and a lube star at the muzzle. The Trailboss necks were a bit sooty and both primers normal looking.
So no tight groups but some directions to head in with trialling some higher Trailboss loads and maybe 0.5grain up and down with the AP70N.

Good fun shooting the Whelen for the first time - the trigger must have had some work as it is quite light, maybe a bit too light for a hunting rifle. The stock will take some getting used to as well, the pistol grip is very short and my little finger wants to fall off the bottom.

[swheeler]

Try the RNFP with the Universal

[sthwestvictoria]

Try the RNFP with the Universal

Yes I will. Initially they would not feed when crimped at the crimp groove. I'll seat them out a bit more and see if I can get them to feed or not. Otherwise I'll just try them single feed. Certainly the action is lovely on the mauser, first one I have owned. Now I want lots - do I need an Israeli K98 in 308?

[sthwestvictoria]

Try the RNFP with the Universal

Yes I will. Initially they would not feed when crimped at the crimp groove. I'll seat them out a bit more and see if I can get them to feed or not. Otherwise I'll just try them single feed. Certainly the action is lovely on the mauser, first one I have owned. Now I want lots - do I need an Israeli K98 in 308?

[Nobade]

No crimping. That can mess with you when using loads like this.

[swheeler]

SWV; I show Hodgdons Universal as slightly faster on a very complete burn rate chart(4 powders between the two), I'd back off a grain and start up, looking for accuracy. I don't crimp, that to the crimp groove is just seating depth instead of listing as COAL.

[swheeler]

SWVictoria: My results with 158 gr RNFP Lee in 35 Whelen have been different than others have posted here. I achieved best 50 yd accuracy at 1512fps for 5 shot groups usingf 12.0 grs of Unique, 60 rounds shot at this loading.

9-24-08- 70*F
35 Whelen, Lee 158 RNFP cast of ACWW/ these run 10-11 bn, .359 lubed with C red, seated to cannalure/crimp groove
12.0 grs of Unique
cci 200 pr/std lr
.750" @ 50 yds avg
25 fps es

Looks like AP70n and no filler needed, try it and let us know

edit to add color

[sthwestvictoria]

Thanks for the excellent advice chaps. I'll make up some more loads, no crimp and report back. Thank you for your help, I'd be swimming in the dark without it.

[DIRT Farmer]

I use a 155 SWC from an old Ideal mould and 5 grns of green dot and a LRP no modifications to trhe case. I built the rifle for a bear hunting trip that never happened but have shot several squrriels and rabbits with it.

[sthwestvictoria]

I was able to get out and try some more variations of the pistol boolit loads in 35 Whelen today.
Varieties tried were:
158grain RNFP 11.5grains AP70N and 158grain RN 11.5grains AP70N:

158grain RN 11.0grains AP70N (frustratingly only had three to load - is this a true grouping or not?!?! I prefer 5 shot strings for this reason):

158grain RNFP 14.5grains Trail Boss and 15.0grains:


All loads Remington brass, CCI LR primers, 72.5mm OAL (will load from magazine if only two in magazine well) no crimp (thanks Nobade). Pan lubed with BW/Vaseline/Lanolin/Crayon as above. No leading.

So overall pretty happy with the 11.5 grains AP70N and the RNFP, as swheeler suggested. Not the .750 inch group he achieved but sub 2 inches (if i did pull the shot at 8 o'clock) is fine for a simple, cheap safe plinking load at 50 metres. Enough to practice the manual of arms and get some trigger time. I'll repeat the 11.0grain AP70n group with a true 5 shot string of the RN and the RNFP to see if those two touching holes were a fluke or not.

I am disappointed about how the Trail Boss flings them around, maybe with the group improving a bit at 15.0grains. I'll keep going up to the max, I think 17.0grains.

I also need to work out if AP70N is position sensitive in these larger cases. Sure would be fun and instructional to have a chronograph - maybe the pocket change needs to be saved up.

Overall any trigger time is a good time and this exercise bears out two forum signatures (I think MtGun44 and runfiverun):
If it was easy anyone could do it
and
It is all an educated guess until the trigger is pulled.