On a re-chambering binge: oddball 44/41 bulldog to 41 long colt?

[Tokarev]

I have a Forehand and Wadsworth all matching with the 5 shot cylinder where chambers measure .46 at the breech, .453 at the mouth and 1.3" long.
The barrel of that bulldog is .408 with 5 groves.
Chamber wall is 0.055" at the mouth. There really isn't enough material there for reaming the chambers for a liner, and I don't want to both re-chamber and line the perfect good barrel.

One option for shooting this gun is to make ammo out of 44 mag cases shortened and necked down with 41 cal bullet. Perhaps running a 44 mag case 1/2" into a 41 cal sizing die then using a 44 mag bullet seating die would do the trick.

Another option is to make cases out of 303 brit and keep wall thickness.

But I also thought of buying this product: http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraf...1016|3103|3081
expanding it slightly over a mandrel to make the chamber liners, soldering them in then grinding the chamber liners to the diameter of 41 long colt dimensions. That can be done with only a wooden dowel wrapped in sandpaper and won't require a chamber reamer I think.
Or one of these can be used:
1/2" OD 0.444 ID http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraf...1016|3103|3081
1/2" OD 0.430 ID http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraf...1016|3103|3081
In the 2nd case I would leave ID alone and grind OD to fit in the chamber, in the 3d case grind both. Is .444 too large a chamber for 41 LC?

What would you do? Make custom ammo, or line the chambers for 41 long Colt?

[I'll Make Mine]

The .41 LC was originally a heeled bullet, outside lubed cartridge, and shows only .405 O.D. for the case body. It's very likely that was the original chambering for that Forehand & Wadsworth, since .408 is pretty reasonable clearance for a nominal .405 cartridge and heeled boolit driving band. That'd be a straight through bored chamber, and a good choice for lining that cylinder.

I'd match the tubing to the O.D. to minimize the amount of reduction needed, then either ream through at .408-.410 (to fit .41 LC with heeled boolit -- molds can be had) or cut for shortened .41 Magnum cases -- to prevent chambering full length .41 Mag but permit proper bullet fit in easily obtained parent cases with modern inside lube design. Given a choice, I'd use an actual reamer rather than a dowel and sandpaper; you'll get better consistency from one chamber to the next, and less diameter variation within each chamber.

[Tokarev]

The 41LC dimensions don't have to followed to the book as commercial ammo is virtually non-existing anyway and 41mag would stick out of the front of the cylinder with its 1.3" length.
No one but myself would fire that gun after modifications anyway.
It would be basically a modernized version of 41LC with straight inside lubed bullet of .410. The cases would then have to be made by shortening 41 Special or 41 Mag whichever available. I already have a Lee 410 mold TL410-210-SWC to use for this project.

Also cost is the factor and that's why sanding a 1/2" OD .444"ID tube on a lathe is sounding like the most economical way that would allow me to better control uniform wall thickness. Once OD reached about .46 I would hammer it into the chamber and it would then taper down to .437 ID at the mouth. Then solder in place. That should do it.

Do you think a chamber tapering from about .444 to about .437 should be OK for an inside-lubed 41 Special case with 410 bullet? It's OD at the case mouth is supposed to be .433 and 2 thou" gap on each side sounds to me like nothing to worry about and should ensure extraction. Should I give more space around the case or less? Comparing that to other revolvers I am seeing controversial results: some chambers are quite lose, some are a tight fit.

It is absolutely not clear what that revolver was supposed to fire for over 100 years with those chamber and barrel dimensions. It's a strong gun for sure and survived some serious abuse in my hands without any damage, so firing that modernized version of 41 LC should present no problem to it at all.

[I'll Make Mine]

I think it likely that the revolver was rechambered by Bubba at some point before you received it. If it were mine, I'd go with traditional .41 LC, but shortened .41 Mag will be a lot easier to load.

Your method of rechambering, IMO, leaves a lot to be desired (are you sure your name isn't Bubba?). "Hammering" the oversize liners into the chambers and expecting them to close down to desired dimension is a very, very bad idea; you're far more likely to completely destroy that thin walled cylinder than to get a usable chamber. Even if it worked, you'd have a chamber that's still grossly oversize for the bore, requiring you to make the brass full cylinder length and seat the bullet fully inside (like a 7.65x38R Nagant round, more or less). If you have a lathe (assuming it's a metal cutting lathe), you'd be ahead to turn the tubes a small amount under your existing chamber diameter (say, .450, or better yet tapered from .450 to .457) and soft solder them in place, then ream them straight through; a single hand reamer for the desired .410 diameter should only cost $20 to $40 (you can turn it with a quality tap handle). No force fitting, no potential to destroy your cylinder or crane, and very little to worry about relative to heat treating at the flow temperature of soft solder (most handguns made a century or more ago were left soft anyway).

Now, the method I've outlined will give you a .41 LC chamber with no rim cut (may not be needed if the cylinder isn't countersunk for rims); to chamber for .41 Mag Short (still with no rim cut) would require partial depth chambering with a .41 Mag chamber reamer (you should be able to rent one for $25 or $30 plus shipping). There are a number of ways to stop the chamber reamer to avoid going too deep (a steel rod stub in the throat, backed against a flat plate at the front end of the cylinder and moved to each chamber in turn, is one of the simpler ones, if the reamer design permits it).

BTW, there never was a .41 Special, and you probably need to shorten the cases more than the assumed 1/8" or so difference between "Special" and "Magnum" anyway.

[Tokarev]

This gun is totally original. It's in original nickel plating including inside the chambers. The chambers have not been rimmed since leaving the factory and doing that would make no sense whatsoever as there's no ammo to match.
$20-40 hand reamer will be straight instead of tapered.
This revolver has removable cylinder, not a swing out crane type, so no concern there. Hammering a tube with about 0.02 wall into the cylinder with chamber 0.05 wall absolutely has no chance of damaging it. The tube will just swage down. I've done this kind of swageing countless times, it works. The cylinder has no rim recesses to worry about. Perhaps I can even get away w/o soldering and just use locktite.

41 Special: http://www.municion.org/41/41Spl.htm

When you are saying that the chambers will be grossly oversize, what size do you consider appropriate? By how much do you think ID of the chambers should be greater than OD of the case?

[Tokarev]

Just checked SAAMI drawings of 41 Mag and chamber dimensions are 1 thou over cartridge dimensions, but tolerance of chamber is +4 thou and the plan I've outlined above would still fit SAAMI spec. Sounds like it's still doable that way.

I respect all that you said about proper way of doing the conversion with reamers and hate to come across as arrogant Bubba, but sometimes the cost of doing the job properly outweighs the benefit over tinkering with improvized methods. This is the case: the guns (I own two of the identical Bulldogs actually) are virtually worthless, scrap metal. Spending much on tooling is not justified.

[Piedmont]

Tokarev, I'm not understanding you and think it is how you worded your original post. Do the chambers have a step down or funnel (leade I think is the proper term here) or are they bored straight through like a .41 Colt should be? When you say the chambers are 1.3" long do you mean 1.3" to the step or do you mean the cylinder is 1.3" long?

[Tokarev]

The chambers are tapered w/o step from .46 down to .453.
OAL of the cylinder is 1.3"

[Piedmont]

I would try your idea of rifle cases. You might be able to use .444 cases too. Many years ago John Taffin wrote of a .444 Shafer where they made the case straight instead of tapered so it could shoot .44 Mags as a sub load. You might be able to size a .444 case in a .44 Mag die with all the decap stuff removed. Maybe do it in a vise. The reason I'm speculating on this case is it would be nice and thick.

But I would try .303 British first. I just measured a fired case and it was .455" in front of the rim. Maybe have the cases just shy of the end of the cylinder by something like .005" and use a .41 wadcutter (or SWC seated backwards) and pretend they are flush seated .38 wadcutters. It should work if the brass thickness is close to being right to fill the chamber at the front.

Is the revolver old enough that you think you should use black powder for safety reasons?

[Tokarev]

That's what I tried initially but growing sick of turning 303 cases in a lathe and just wanted to solve this once and for all.
Too much trouble, as rims have to be turned down towards the head and down in diameter too.

The revolver is old enough, but very strong. Forehand and Wadsworth folded in 1892 and all its Bulldogs date around 1880s-1890s.
It will work with 2.5 gr Universal behind a 205 gr bullet like nothing to do.
If chambers were lined with 0.02 4130 it probably would be safe to go up 1 grain.
I used 4 gr Unique in a Webley RIC 442 behind a 215 gr bullet with no issues and RIC has thinner chamber walls than this unmodified Bulldog.

Another option is not to bother with steel and just use trimmed brass cases to line the chambers. But if I can go for 4130, why cheaping out? It's only about $5 plus shipping.

[Tokarev]

Bingo! Just found a variable reamer in a box of tools recently bought at garage sale for a buck that can go guess from where?

Right, from .410...
To where? To .435!

Thinking that the reamer would solve the chambering issue completely, I've ordered a 1/2" OD .402" ID tube from Wicks.

[Wayne Smith]

Do please let us know how this works out!

[deltaenterprizes]

Make it a 41 Special.

[Tokarev]

41 special won't chamber in a 1.3" cylinder as the OAL would be 1/8" longer. It will have to be 41 Long Colt original with OAL of 1.096".

[I'll Make Mine]

At least if you're rechambering, you can put a suitable shoulder in the chamber (using a correct .41 LC reamer, by preference), so you don't have to load heeled bullets; the bored-through Long Colt chambers never had much accuracy after factory rounds switched to inside lubed bullets, unless the shooter was also a reloader (and probably also a caster).

[Tokarev]

Yeah, that's what's going to happen. This will be an inside lubed cartridge and chamber will be straight 435 with 410 throat.

I will match 41 LC Original OAL only to allow for an unlikely case of factory round being used.

[I'll Make Mine]

I will match 41 LC Original OAL only to allow for an unlikely case of factory round being used.

If I'm reading this right, you're going to cut the chamber to .41 LC length, not cut it over length to permit chambering a heeled bullet round, right? Cutting the shoulder at .41 LC maximum case length is what I'd expect in a "modern" .41 LC; you won't find a heeled bullet in any factory round made since (at the latest) WWII, probably more like 1920.

[Tokarev]

I will match the OAL of 41LC Original, but make it an inside lubed round, i.e. not use heeled bullet.

Having cast, loaded and shot thousands of heeled 442 Webley rounds, having developed a crimping tool for it (which I sold to many happy customers around the world), personally I am sick of it to be honest and not looking to deal with another heeled bullet any time soon.

One liner is done. I've decided to ream the chambers to cylinder as it's only a few thou. Picking up hand adjustable reamer tonight.

Attachment 61803Attachment 61802Attachment 61804

[Tokarev]

All 5 liners ready to be installed now. Hitting the road to pick up the missing in my set 2/A 7/16-15/32 adjustable reamer.

That's it. Liners installed in the last picture. All final reaming/honing will be done once 41 Special cases will arrive.

[Fritz1255]

Okay I'm a few years late to this party, but I just ran across this thread. I have two Bulldog pistols that seem to be chambered for this same round, whatever it is. As far as I can tell, these pistols were made in Europe and both say "British Bulldog" on the top strap. The bore size on both runs about 0.410". The cylinder on one of them is straight through at 0.455", while the other one is tapered - 0.469" in the back, 0.419" in the front. I load for them using shortened 44 Special brass and a 0.410" bullet. The crimp is done using a shortened 44 Special seating die - apply a heavy roll crimp that holds the 0.410" bullet in place. The biggest mystery to me is what the original cartridge was. I looked through my reference books, but I can't find any cartridge with a 0.410" bullet and a case of about 0.45" diameter. The rim needs to be at least 0.475" so the whole cartridge can't drop into the cylinder. Any ideas?