Was thinking about using copper hard http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/...rd_babbitt.htm as a source of tin and copper antimony seems like a good deal for tin and antimony for making hard alloy for high power rifle bullets on the cheap maybe add a little more copper befor mixing it into the lead and a little magnum shot for arsenic I am kind of new to the casting game and any imput wuold be apriciated
Might lean towards super tough. You don't need alot of copper. I am using an alloy that has about .25% copper, and could probably go to .15% for most everything. It will give you plenty of tin also. You might need some antimony, possibly from some magnum shot, then add lead. There is a lead alloying chart around here somewhere, so you can figure out just what you might need as far as lead or ww's to get the alloy you want.
it's in the sticky by bumpo.
bout 3-4 down from the top of the page.
I spent a lot of time calculating elemental cost per wieght if I go with 3 lbs of copper hard I get a 1#of tin, 1.5#s lead , just under 0.5# antimony and a little under an ounce of copper figured I could gt a little more copper to disolve in by melting it hot and using fine wire or some coper sulfate into a small batch of lead with pennies thrown in th mixing up a 40# batch of range recovered cleaned lead figured that would cover my high power casting for the foreseeable future
read badger edd's thread on adding copper.
you don't lose half your alloy to dross.
Don't throw pennies into the mix for the copper. They are zinc!
Read something the other day about it being a felony to willfully destroy coinage.Robert
The government has been destroying the value of coinage for years!Originally Posted by Hardcast416taylor
We might as well get some use out of it..
Having said that I wouldn't screw with trying to alloy copper into my mix when there is Rotometals Super Tough..
Maybe later after the process is better understood, but for now, after reading swheelers experience with pennies, no thanks..
+1 on the Rotometals SuperTough!!! If one is buying the babbit in the first place, I'd guess they would be best served by buying the SuperTough as it likely will get you to an optimum alloy with the least hassle. We added copper to a babbit because we had another babbit in hand. What we likely ended up with is very near the SuperTough alloy. I intend to order some of the SuperTough for experiments in the coming weeks so I positively know what I am starting with and what I have (as close as I can get with current info) in the finished alloy so it is repeatable. My opinion here.
Edd
Charter member Michigan liars club!
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."
Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.
Well Edd, I'll be following your lead as I cast outside and won't be doing any until the end of March at the earliest..
I have some Super Tough on hand from a December order..
Can't wait!
As I have said in other threads, a little goes a long way in this case. MORE is likely not better in the final analysis. I also have mentioned a "balanced" alloy. Below are a couple with SuperTough.
FYI...One mixture that seems to be very good is listed below...although I have used it with our copper added babbit. It should apply well for most cases.
5#14oz. COWW, 4 oz. #3 babbit(SuperTough), 7# pure pb. and this gives you a alloy (best guesstimate) 3.49% Sn, 3.34% Sb, 0.15% Cu, 0.11% As, and the remainder Pb. If a fellow uses exactly half of each compoment, he will have a small batch that he can mix in a 10 pound Lee bottom feeder. Also you'll likely find you will need to keep the pot close to 725 degrees to preclude nozzle freeze off...been there, done that.
It may be a bit on the hard side for some so if you add 2 more pounds of pure Pb (full sized batch) you'll end up with an alloy a bit lower in tin antimony and copper which will be about: 3.03% Sn, 2.90% Sb, 0.13% Cu, 0.10% As. remainder PB.
I intensionally made the batches on the small side because many have 10 pots and if you're going to play with this stuff, I'd suggest you try different alloys to see how they work for YOUR purposes.
Edd
Charter member Michigan liars club!
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."
Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.
+1 and an excellent observation. That was the problem in the decades before someone started making sweetening alloys.... just what did you have. Copper and zinc have been used for boolits for a long time (and these experiments cycle every couple of decades). What you had might be the best thing ever, but when you ran out you had to replace it..... then guess what, it was NEVER the same thing. Repeatability on a copper alloy is KING. Having a good supplier is nice, but I would hope someone here comes up with a repeatable easy way to make a sweetening alloy.... because you never know how long your supplier is going to be there.
I doubt that there are very many people here that could effectively blend the base metals together to form a babbit alloy, even if they (in your scenario) were able to find pure tin, pure antimony, and pure copper. The babbit alloys have a history that goes back to 1839. Several foundaries in the U.S. made type 2, 3, and 11 babbit so if Rotometals went out of business this afternoon there are other suppliers.
BTW, how would one know what lead alloy he had on hand? WW alloy is obviously changing and soon will no longer be available at all. What other alloy is reliably available for cast boolits with a somewhat know alloy?
My point is that I don't see a honestly totally repeatable alloy of any kind being available unless we make it all ourselves...including the famous 50% COWW + 50% pure lead unless we have the pure compnents available.
Edd
Charter member Michigan liars club!
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."
Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.
I am sure that the copperized babbit "sweetener" batch I did using Babore's copper welding wire and the batch I did using copper grounding wire, and the batch I did using lamp cords differ ever so slightly. Using about 4% of each saturated copperized RR babbit batch as a "sweetener" with my 50ww/50pb had the same effect on my boolits. They came out scary close to the same weight (within normal casting variance in fact) and are the same hardness at a given age. I do not think that you have to be perzactly accurate as long as you are really close. I am not sure you can be 100% accurate in the first place, ambient outside temperature alone would preclude that as the final melt temp will vary slightly even with the turkey fryer set on balls to the walls high melt temp when making the sweetener batch.
My 50/50 batches are made 400lbs at a time...pretty consistent.
The RR babbit I got from Edd has to vary slightly with the smaller scale of which he smelts it at.
The Babbit was taken to the saturation point with copper in each case, but there has to be some small variance. Now in the sake of consistency I have combined all three batches of copperized babbit into a HOMOGENIZED batch of sweetener and that batch also falls into place with the batches before they were combined.......the babbit will only take so much copper and I feel that as long as you get all that you can of it in there while making the sweetener batch.....I believe you are good, my results have proven it to me.
Getting the largest amounts of the raw materials that you can, and making large smelts at a time are as close as we can get and I feel that is as close as we need to get....just one man's experienced take on the madness, feel free to disagree, but it does not have to be exact to be king. Getting a bit of copper in there is KING.
If anyone finds what seems to be an ideal alloy perhaps they could send a few samples to the folks with access to analyses equipment?
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
There is the rub...we've just gotten started with the higher copper alloys this last few months (mainly since June).
357maximum used a 7mm boolit with a copper content in the 0.2% range this last season in his 7mm TCU to take 2 deer as he reported in the hunting section. Both boolits performed well, but unfortunately he wasn't able to recover either one. We Michiganders here in the lower are trying our best to get some pertinent data. We could send out a sample but we wanted to do some more experimenting. He is getting great accuracy from his TCU carbine with loads hitting a bit over 2500 fps.
Edd
Charter member Michigan liars club!
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."
Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.
To be 100% truthful...I do not need to know exactly what is in there to the percentage point....get as much copper as you can into the "sweetener" babbit and then "spice" up 50/50 with it at about 4%............guud nuff fer me. As long as I use the same babbit, and take that babbit to the sturation point.....all is good until I run out of babbit and Edd knows what that particular babbit is....so I am good. I REALLY DO NOT THINK THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS IN SOMETHING TO KNOW IT WORKS. ...........I am simple and I know it.
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