Different homemade dies from 7/8 x 14 bolts ?

[littlejack]

B R Shooter:
No sir, I have not. I am just getting into the lathe operations, and I do not even have any reamers.
OOPS, I thought you were talking to me.
My appologies B R.
Jack

[theperfessor]

Can't sing, can't dance, can't play basketball, gotta know something to make a living with...

Haven't used A2 when I've needed to ream it, but it doesn't take much rubbing with a dull tool to get hot enough to harden up. When I use it I have to force myself to go slow and be patient - and use really sharp tools.

Same with most stainless steels, many grades will work harden just from pressure alone. I don't use stainless for anything I don't have to, and when I do I try to use the free machining grades.

[littlejack]

I did call around town, and found one place where I can get the 01 drill rod. This steel house is quite well known for it's higher prices. They quoted me a 42 dollars and some change for a 3' stick of 7/8 rod. I actually didn't think that was too bad of a price, if one considers the postage one would pay if I bought it in Seattle or ????.
Just for your information:
I did go out and do some measuring on the die that I made from the G5 bolt, and compared it to the measurements of some of my factory dies. My homemade die is .867 diameter. The factory dies measure from .861 to all the way up to .869. I screwed my die in my RCBS RC press, and the fit was better than some of my factory dies, and as good as the better ones. There must be quite a bit of +/- tolerances on those factory dies, or maybe I just got a + size on the bolt? The dies I measured, were from Redding , RCBS, Lyman, and LEE.
Jack

[oldred]

Try Enco, Even with shipping it's cheaper than what they quoted and Enco usually has free shipping codes for as little as a $25 dollar order, don't know if they do right now but I bet they will sometime this month.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PMPXNO=946920

[littlejack]

Thank you oldred. That is way more better.
And, thats why I love this forum.

[oldred]

4140 has got to be the most useful grade of alloy steel ever formulated.

That it is! I keep 4140HT flat and round stock and I find that the pre-hardened stuff machines beautifully and in a lot of cases can be used "as is" without running into dimension and surface change problems from hardening after machining. I make a lot of farm machinery parts from it and I also machined the receiver and most of the internal parts of my Highwall replica from a block of 4140HT and I have been using it without any further heat treatment, really tough stuff!

[theperfessor]

I would bet that most presses and dies use class 2 thread tolerances, which is what most standard fasteners and all-thread rod are made to. Class 1 threads are loose and sloppy, class 3 are for micrometers and such. A copy of any Machinery's Handbook printed in the last fifty years (so a used copy is fine) is VERY handy for ANY machinist at ANY skill level to have available. The dimensional specs for threads and most other basic machine elements hasn't changed much in a long time, at least in any way that would concern the home machinist.

Just for basic info, when you read a thread call out on a print here is what it means, using the following standard format:

Example: 1/4-20 UNC 2B

1/4 - basic nominal outside diameter of male thread (actual diameter is smaller by the amount of flatting/rounding of the thread crest)
20 - TPI, threads per inch (the pitch is the reciprocal of the TPI). 20 is the Coarse pitch standard for 1/4 diameter thread, 28 is Fine, ...
UNC - Unified National thread form (a defined shape, 60 deg) Coarse pitch. There is also UNF fine pitch, UNEF extra fine pitch, and UNS special pitch.
2 - class of fit, basically the tolerance as explained above
B - internal (female) thread. A is for external (male) threads.

If you don't have a Machinery's Handbook here is a handy link to UN thread dimensional data:

http://www.usi.edu/science/engineeri...fo/unthrds.htm

[JIMinPHX]

I've made several Lee style push through sizing dies out of thread rod. The results were good.

I've also used G-8 bolts. They were harder to work with & harder to get a good finish on. Allen bolts finish much better than G-8 bolts do, but Allen bolts that size are not cheap.

[JMtoolman]

I have made a lot of dies for the projects of my own. After a lifetime of being a machinest, I look around at the gun shows around here. I often find boxes of old dies on some of the swap tables. Not many people are intrested in old grungy rusty mismatched dies. I have purchased boxes of ten or a dozen for a few dollers. With a little annealing, these work great as a base dies for projects. You might want to keep your eyes open for the same thing. The toolman.

[littlejack]

JM:
That is a great idea. I hadn't thought of that. Thank you for your post and input.
Sometimes the obvious goes right over our heads.
Jack

[jmsj]

I have made a lot of dies for the projects of my own. After a lifetime of being a machinest, I look around at the gun shows around here. I often find boxes of old dies on some of the swap tables. Not many people are intrested in old grungy rusty mismatched dies. I have purchased boxes of ten or a dozen for a few dollers. With a little annealing, these work great as a base dies for projects. You might want to keep your eyes open for the same thing. The toolman.

This is a good point.
I have done the same thing to make seating dies for die sets that came with a single seat/crimping die.

[Dutchman]

This Lee case neck flaring tool can be used to make any number of dies. I made neck expanders plugs like the Lyman M die. You can also use a Lyman M die body to make a black powder compression plug tool. I did just that with a Lyman M die body.

You're in western Oregon. I'm in Yreka, NorCal. If you ever want a day long machine shop tutorial come on down. I have a Birmingham 12x36 lathe, two vertical mills, South Bend 7" shaper.



Dutch

[littlejack]

Thanks fellas.
Dutchman:
I know where you are, I was transplanted here in Eugene Oregon with my brother in 1965. I have been
through Yreka many times. We used to live in the Bay Area. Richmond, San pablo, Concord, and
Pleasant Hill.
I may take you up on your invitation one of these days. Thank you sir, that is very generous of you.
Thanks for your idea, I have that very same Lee die. Now, if I need/want to, I can transform the
innards to work in other ways.
Jack

[Frank46]

I've made up a few shorty neck sizing dies from regular threaded 7/8x14 screw stock or threaded rod. These come in 3' lengths. Easy to machine and polish the interiors with various grades of silicon carbide paper. No need to harden as the brass is way softer. Frank

[Pavogrande]

I am with mr buchanan -
I use 7/8 ready rod and no hardening for general projects -
I have not found commercial dies to be close fits in a press -
I have yet to wear out a homebuilt neck sizer or base die --
If I were to wear one out, it would only take a short time to replace --
If it was a standard size I would likely buy one rather than make it --

[oldred]

This discussion got me to wondering about actual fit so last night I took a 7/8" bolt from the bolt bin and screwed it into my RCBS press then compared the fit to the RCBS dies, I was very surprised to find that if anything the bolt actually felt a bit tighter. I really thought the dies would fit closer than they do but I guess that's just another case of "assuming" something to be true without actually checking to verify which I have now done but with different results than I expected. Not sure what would happen if the bolt was removed and replaced a few times to deburr the threads etc, but I doubt it would make much difference. Now run-out is a different story but as long as this is considered and dealt with it should be no problem and of course threaded rod will not have this problem.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dies Have to be made to fit "any" press, and as a result may be made on the low end of the Pitch Diameter window for a 2A fit.

Dutch: I like you mods to the Lee Expander die. This is something that anyone with a lathe could do easily and it would be useful to those who need different sizes of expanders for different applications.

Randy

[littlejack]

When I checked the "first and only one" die that I did make, I was surprised also. As I stated before the measurements that I took on the factory dies, had quite a bit of variation. If anything, the O.D dimensions of the homemade die (from the bolt) were at the upper end. After trying several of the factory dies in my press, I found the homemade die fit as good as any, and better than some.
Jack

[W.R.Buchanan]

Littlejack: on threads the OD measurement is not critical and only tells part of the story. The measurement that actually matters is the "pitch diameter" fo the thread.

This is the measurement that relates to fit and or Class of fit of the thread.

The OD measurement of a thread is generally smaller than the actual size of the thread. IE; a 7/8-14 thread will normally be between .870-.860. (off the top of my head) The reason for this is so that the crest or top of the thread is a flat and not sharp which it would be if the OD was full size.

The Pitch Diameter on a thread is measured by either using a "Thread Pitch Micrometer" or by using a conventional micrometer over "Thread Wires." The easier but more expensive way is to use a dedicated Thread Pitch Mike which when correctly zeroed over the correct anvils for a given range of threads, will yield a direct reading of the pitch diameter which can be comparred to the numbers given in the Machinery's Handbook. IE one male and female anvil will cover thread pitches of 10-14TPI and another will be for 15-28tpi etc.

Thread Wires come in sets,,, in which there are several sets of 3 each wires,,, which cover a range of different thread sizes similar to what the anvils do on a pitch mike.

The difference is you must measure over the three wires, 2 on one side and one on the other, and then take that reading and enter it into a "formula," which yields the pitch diameter. This can a be a bit of a problem, especially if you need to measure threads in a production situation where you are checking every 5th or 10th part for consistancy. Obviously the pitch mike is the preferred tool for that type of job, however the thread wires can be just as effective for one or two parts, and they are much cheaper to buy in the first place.

There are also thread gages which either male or female threads are at the bottom and top of a given threads pitch diameter range. They are specific to one size thread and are not cheap, but they are commonly used to check threads for correct size. There is usually a go and a no go gage. The "go gage" is at the top end of the PD, and the "no go gage" is at the bottom. AS long as the thread goes into the GO gage and won't go into the NO GO gage it is considered good.

Cutting threads is a very rewarding task on a machine tool. And there are many ways to do it. However all of them must be checked for correct size when done because there can be variations which will determine if the thread fits correctly or is too loose or too tight. This is actually more important than actually cutting the threads in the first place.

Randy

[theperfessor]

Right on WRB.