Different homemade dies from 7/8 x 14 bolts ?

[littlejack]

I finally got my small reloading/machine shed built, and my Grizzley lathe set up.
My first small project was a compression die for my 45-70 black powder reloads. I started with a grade
five 7/8 x 14 bolt. I could have used a grade 3, for there is not going to be any contact by the case to
the inner die wall.
I didn't see any reason for using round stock, and having to thread said stock.
After boring the proper size hole for the compression pin ( 1/2" nf bolt), then I drilled and polished the
proper size hole for the 45-70 case to fit up inside the die.
I threaded the top section of the die to accept the compression pin.
Everything worked out real well, for my first small project.
This post is mainly to ask the other members that make their own reloading tools and such.
QUESTION:
Do any of you use the already threaded bolts available to make your dies with? What grade of bolts do
you use, grade 3, 5 or 8?
I doubt that I will be making any sizing dies, except for a set of 45 acp shotshell sizer dies.
I did make a sizer die to size down 40 cases, to use a jackets for .410 boolits, on a drill press early last
year. I also used a grade 5 bolt for that, and polished it out real nice with 600 grit paper. It works very
well.
So, can anyone share any tips for their homemade projects and reloading tools on their lathes?
Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you fellas.
Jack

[B R Shooter]

I like my dies to fit much better than an off the shelf bolt. You have a lathe, why are you relying on bolt?

[jmsj]

Jack,
B R Shooter makes a good point about the poor dimensions of most bolts as a starting point for dies. Most bolts have really rough threads, are very undersized and probably have quite a bit of runout.
Probably the easiest project is making nose punches for a lubesizer. Another easy project to get started on are sizing dies. Do a search for the dimensions. I think JimInPhx posted the prints a while back.
There is no limit to what can be done on lathe.

[dragonrider]

"I didn't see any reason for using round stock, and having to thread said stock"

Like B R Shooter said using a bolt or threaded rod results in dies that are a sloppy fit. I thread all dies that I make. Also you missed an opportunity to practice and improve your threading ability.

[HollowPoint]

For a "First Project" I think you've succeeded.

As a chronic tinkerer, I would consider a working finished die to be my main goal and
the materials I used to make it, more of a common sense thing.

If I've interpreted your OP correctly you were just trying to skip the "Threading-Step" involved in this project. I'm not sure if it's because
you haven't learned how to cut threads or you just didn't see any need for it given that the properly threaded rod is available. Doesn't really matter.

I can think of no better way to build ones' confidence than by completing a successful working project. And, one of the most efficient ways of
getting your project critiqued into oblivion is to post it somewhere where experienced machinist hang out.

Anymore; I don't post any of my projects until I've completed and tested them. That way any negative replies I may get don't kill my dreams
or affect the outcome of my projects in any negative way. I don't need help loosing my confidence or screwing up my projects. I can to that all
by myself. And it happens more often than anyone will ever know. It's all a learning process.

HollowPoint

[littlejack]

Thank you for all of your input and opinions. I understand what all of you have said, and it makes sense to me.
What material would be the best for making dies? I can either buy a threading tool already ground to
the proper dimensions, or I can grind my own. My brother was a lathe operator for a few years, and
can relay a lot of his knowledge on to me.
I think I am really going to enjoy this little lathe.
Jack

[richbug]

I have made some of my swaging dies using bolts. The bolts I have used have all been Grade 8 or better(Bowmalloy). The better bolts generally have better threads.

Why reinvent the wheel, and waste my already all too precious time, making something that I can buy cheaper than I can make.

[B R Shooter]

I use old barrels for a lot of dies, the hole is already there! But stainless doesn't harden quite as good as other steels. Get some 4140.

If I were going to make a die from bar stock,the first thing I would do is drill the hole. Then, tun and thread it in REAL between centers. Not the catchall phrase most use for between centers, where they are using a steady. I mean use a center in the headstock and dog, in the hole you've drilled, and a center in the tail stock, same hole. Turn to diameter, thread to fit. The take it out and work to that hole, which is now concentric with the OD.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's a different concept:

Instead of using a bolt, why not buy a 3' long piece of 7/8-14 All thread. You could make about 12 dies from a 3' length that would cost you <$10.

Use Grade 2 12L14 material if possible as it is the easiest to machine and will yield the best finish. Reloading dies are normally made from this material not 4130-40 etc. It can be carburized easily by the HT house if you desire.

The biggest problem in machining 4130 is getting a good finish. It will be nearly impossible to achieve on your lathe, as it does not have the power, the speed or the rigidity to move the material in a way conducive of a good finish. As a result you will have to sand the finish in with sand paper. This will take some time depending on how good the finish is to begin with. It is not impossible, but this is a place where it is better to be lucky than good.

The bolt you started with is made of 4130 or 40 and is already Rc 40ish. The difference between a G5 bolt and a G8 bolt is only the hardness which yields a higher tensile strength. G5 is 120K psi and G8 is 150K psi. Neither is necessary for a reloading die of any kind.

As far a hardening the die afterwards if you plan on running the die in a production environment then yes you could send it out to have it done correctly to any heat treating outfit. If you talk nice to them maybe you could get them to run your part along with another batch so that you didn't have to pay full pop. Don't try to do this process yourself as you will only make a mess out of your die.

For most usage leaving it soft would work just fine as you are sizing brass which is much softer than any steel.

Classic Lee Loaders are not hardened, and many other loading dies are not hardened either.

Just some thoughts to ponder, before you add unnecessary problems to your project..

Randy

[theperfessor]

Just a few comments about using threaded fasteners for raw material. These are my opinions only and should not be taken as discouragement or nitpicking by anyone who uses them for their projects.

1. Bolts are made to withstand tensile loads and to be tough. They are not made to be hard, but the heat treating process used will yield a harder material as a side effect of the strengthening process. If the result is a material that is hard enough to do what you plan to do, fine. But if not, and you have to heat treat it, how will you know what it is made of and how well it will harden? If its soft enough to cut with HSS tooling then it's soft enough to scratch or abrade easily from grit and other abrasive particles.

2. If the inside features have to be concentric with the threaded exterior, how well can you line it up in your machine? How will you grab it? By the crest of the threads? As others have pointed out and as I've seen by visual inspection, sometimes the OD/crest is not concentric with the thread's central axis. I've overcome this by chucking up a piece of scrap and drilling/tapping the ID so I can screw the fastener into it and get a little better concentricity, but I still end up having to cut threads in/on something. If the inside doesn't have to be that close then this may not be a problem.

The easiest way for me, and I realize I'm not the best machinist in the world so I am taking my own faults into consideration, is to:

- use raw material of known strength, machinability, and heat treating characteristics.

- cut the OD/threads and the ID features all in one setup. That way I'm sure the inside and outside are truly concentric.

Honestly, I've done it enough that cutting standard single lead external threads is almost as fast as taking an extra rough cut on the same surface. Not so at first, but with practice it's not hard to do quickly and accurately.

Again, no criticism is intended of those who use threaded fasteners or all thread rod, I just know my projects come out better (usually) and I have more control over the end product when I do the threading myself as part of the process.

[oldred]

Another vote to not use pre-threaded rod or bolts, while the all-thread rod could easily be centered it will be a sloppy fit and usually be quite soft. Don't be afraid of threading because it's not "Rocket Science" and once you get the hang of it you won't give a second thought to threading an item. By far the best material for home made dies is O1 drill rod of the appropriate size because while it's easily machined in it's as delivered state it's very easily hardened by heating with a torch and quenching in oil, very forgiving temperature range for hardening so it's easy for the beginner and you end up with a hardened die made from real tool steel.

Classic Lee Loaders are not hardened.

True but they are also hard plated.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Old Red: Lee Classic die are "chrome plated" but they are not "hard chrome plated." There is a big difference. Also the exterior plating only goes into the interior about 1/4" the rest is open.

The interior of my .243 Classic Loader also has a reamed finish which is not very smooth. It also has a light coating of rust which I will remove shortly.

Randy

[SOFMatchstaff]

I have turned out some Experimental tooling for the swaging operations by using the dillon removable die body as a carrier for the actual swage portion of the tool.
You dont have to thread each piece, just make the insert and slip it in. easily case hardened and polished in the lathe. the old rifle barrels are a great source of decent steel for experiments, and harden nicely with some tinkering to get what you want.

I was looking fof a 22Jet die a while back, solved that problem with a piece of Rem barrel and the reamer I discovered in my stash. worked well.

[littlejack]

You guys are great.
I was told by my dad when I started in the welding trade (18 years old), (Listen to the old hands, you will learn a lot).
I was a fabricator/welder for a 37 year career. I enjoyed making/building things from steel daily. Although, there was the common drudgery that came with any job.
I did as suggested by my dad, and found that just about all my mentors and work aquaintences were more than willing to teach,if I was willing to learn and not be a smart a$$.
I was still learning when I retired, and still loved the trade. It gave me great satisfaction to stand back and admire equipment and accesories that I had fabricated from the skills I had learned.
I appreciate all of the input and suggestions, and do not take any offense to what any of you have said. Please do not stop, with any suggestions and tips, as I know that there are many self starters that can/will appreciate your expierienced knowledge, and will benifit from your expertese.
Jack

[littlejack]

Would it be best to use the proper 7/8" diameter round stock, or would it be better to get a larger 1" diameter and turn it down
for a better fit after threading?
Would this procedure also apply for any other items from round stock, i.e. 1/2" from 5/8", 3/4" from 7/8" etc?
Jack

[KCSO]

I don't want to sound crass here but your first project on a lathe is to learn to thread. Then get GOOD stock and make whatever dies you need. I thread up 12" of stock at a time and keep it on hand for die projects. I want better metal in my dies than some old bolt.

[oldred]

Old Red: Lee Classic die are "chrome plated" but they are not "hard chrome plated." There is a big difference. Also the exterior plating only goes into the interior about 1/4" the rest is open.

Loader also has a reamed finish which is not very smooth. It also has a light coating of rust which I will remove shortly.

Randy

My mistake I have always thought they were plated inside and out, "assuming" without verifying has got me in trouble more than once.

[theperfessor]

The OP asked about different materials, so here are a few suggestions:

12L14 and 1144 - the first is a leaded steel, the second has a bit of sulfur added back to it, both are free machining and cut beautifully. Not intended to be hardened although they can be.

1018 to 1024 steel - cheap, widely available in many shapes/sizes, can't be quench hardened, but can be case hardened. Useful for a lot of things but machines stringy and sometimes tears, have to work a lot harder to get a good finish than with the first two.

1050 - plenty of carbon, machines OK, can be hardened by quenching. This is commonly used for hydraulic cylinder rod in its chrome plated form, so if you can find some scrap rods they make good lathe stock ONCE YOU CUT THROUGH THE CHROME PLATING. I've turned it on a lathe by cutting under the chrome completely on the first cut, but it left a notch on the side of a carbide tool where it was cutting the chrome plating.

4140, O1, and A2 - 4140 has got to be the most useful grade of alloy steel ever formulated. I use it in the annealed as well as the pre-hardened state. Annealed is easier to work with. Hardening it is no real problem. Same with O1, you buy it soft, machne it, and harden it. Both steels are oil quench grades. A2 is an air hardening tool steel and is also fairly easy to machine in the annealed state and fairly easy to harden in air. Almost to easy, I am real careful when I machine it so I don't overheat it while cutting and harden it before I'm ready.

There are a lot of other materials out there, but the ones I've listed are generally available in round, flat, and hex shapes.

For my die bodies in my push through sizer set I use 1144 in 1" hex and cut it down to the right OD before threading. If your lathe has a good accurate chuck you could get by by buying the stock right at 7/8.

Just sharing what works for me, YMMV.

[littlejack]

Thank you Keith.
That will be some very helpful information. If you had all that information in your noggin, I salute you sir.
It sounds as though the 01 material is one of the many better materials, and may be the popular go to material for home use.
Jack

[B R Shooter]

I tried to ream a die in A2, wouldn't cut. Have you done it with a chamber reamer?