Cast bullets with copper enriched alloy

[Dutch4122]

Would someone please point me to the post with the base alloy make-up? Or just repost it? Thanks.

That would be posts #44 and #47 of this thread.


Hope this helps,

[nighthunter]

OK ... I placed a couple of those brass enriched bullets on the anvil pad of my bench vise and smacked them with a 2 pound hammer. One I beat into a disc about 1 1/2 inches in diameter and the other just a couple good whacks. There was no splitting or cracking of the metal. I would surmise that this indicates a good mallebility. Casting with this alloy was not much different than other alloys except needing a little more heat. The sprue was a little harder to cut but it did cut with no tearing of the base of the bullet. I know the proof will be in the shooting but everything seems good to go to this point.

Nighthunter

[357maximum]

NH

That sounds about like what is happening with the babbit+copper+50/50. Obviously there is several ways to skin the cat on this one. As long as the finished boolit does not act brittle like linotype and there are no casting issues I am sure your method is on track too. I have a 3lb coffee can full of shavings that used to be the difference in length between 8X57 and 30/06 brass that is just waiting for me to have a few moments to try.


Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .

[badgeredd]

NH

That sounds about like what is happening with the babbit+copper+50/50. Obviously there is several ways to skin the cat on this one. As long as the finished boolit does not act brittle like linotype and there are no casting issues I am sure your method is on track too. I have a 3lb coffee can full of shavings that used to be the difference in length between 8X57 and 30/06 brass that is just waiting for me to have a few moments to try.


Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .

What he said!!!!!!

Although the hammer/anvil test if far from scientific...it does let you see the difference in COWW alloy and the enhanced alloy. It is pretty startling to see the difference in the way each reacts to the hammer blow. Linotype comparison is even more revealing about malleability of the alloys. The terminal performance of a boolit is definitely going to be dependant on the malleabity or plactic deformation of the lead alloy, at least that is my opinion.

Edd

[madsenshooter]

In the piddling I've done, it appears if there's too much Sb in the mix one gets divets on the base of the bullet.

[303Guy]

Getting a touch of copper in the melt is the key and from what I am seeing great overdoses of copper are not needed....not even sure if it would be desired at this point. I know Edd's copperized babbit enhancement method works and it looks like there are at least 2 to 3 other ways to do it. I am sure as more people play with the idea even more "methods" will be found. Whatever is discovered or rediscovered will add to the sum total of our knowledge and that is great in my book. This forum and unselfish open minds are ushering in the Golden Age of Castboolits...............................YEEEEHAW .

Absolutely!

These copper enriched threads have gotten my interest up and I've been trying some out. I did the hammering into a disc test and boy, do they get hot! But no edge splitting. And strong - I cannot bend them. Yet when first cast they bent easily with the fingers. Those ones had ducks behind like sprue pluckings. I finally found some clip on WW (what a mission to separate just a few) and chucked some in the pot then added more drain pipe until the ducks backside sprue went away. No change in hardness and I haven't hammered one of those yet.

I did notice that the castings come out almost at mold size which means that they come out with difficulty since I'm using solid molds. I've also realized that lead and its alloys is a lot more complex than I had realized! Just the way alloys freeze in the mold for instance. Some freeze in a way that makes the nose softer than the base and some in a way that causes the mid-section to collapse! And leave the nose harder than the base - for a few days.

[nighthunter]

Had a little range time today with the .223 and the Cu enriched alloy. Loaded 10 rounds each of 63 grain .225 and 55 grain .225 bullets with 24.0 grains of 4895. This was just a starting point for a load. I figure velocity was 2750 to 2850 fps. Both bullets had the same point of impact at 50 yards and 19 shots went into a 1 1/4 inch group. The first shot was a flyer about 1 1/2 inch above the group. There was zero leading in my barrel after the 20 rounds. When the weather improves I will refine the load for accuracy and increase the range. Today was more a function test of the alloy to see if I could get the velocity without the leading. To me it was a total success especially considering that a 22 caliber centerfire was used. I was somewhat surprised with the accuracy with it being a jumping in point with the powder charge.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

Had a little range time today with the .223 and the Cu enriched alloy. Loaded 10 rounds each of 63 grain .225 and 55 grain .225 bullets with 24.0 grains of 4895. This was just a starting point for a load. I figure velocity was 2750 to 2850 fps. Both bullets had the same point of impact at 50 yards and 19 shots went into a 1 1/4 inch group. The first shot was a flyer about 1 1/2 inch above the group. There was zero leading in my barrel after the 20 rounds. When the weather improves I will refine the load for accuracy and increase the range. Today was more a function test of the alloy to see if I could get the velocity without the leading. To me it was a total success especially considering that a 22 caliber centerfire was used. I was somewhat surprised with the accuracy with it being a jumping in point with the powder charge.

Nighthunter

You're experiencing what we've been working for from the start. Pretty cool isn't it? The accuracy with relative high load pressure was the reason we started experimenting seriously with the copper enriched alloys.

Edd

[Slide1285]

Hi guys! New member hear all because I found this thread. I know this thread has been cold for a while now but has there been any new development on experiments you guys are running? Here is my situation....

I find myself with an unlimited supply of range scrap, most still in the copper jacket. I have been looking into ways to make this a useable alloy with minimal purchased material. Suggestions?

-Slide

[62chevy]

Hi guys! New member hear all because I found this thread. I know this thread has been cold for a while now but has there been any new development on experiments you guys are running? Here is my situation....

I find myself with an unlimited supply of range scrap, most still in the copper jacket. I have been looking into ways to make this a useable alloy with minimal purchased material. Suggestions?

-Slide

Use the forum search on the top right and enter the phrase " range scrap " and " turkey fryer ". Anyways you will need a turkey fryer or better to melt tons of range scrap. Best advice is to keep the temp between 650 and 750 for best results, in this case lower is better.

[archangel2003]

What a disappointment to find the most recent postings about copper in the lead is 4 -1/2 years old!
I wonder if this will even post, or if the original posters are still around.
I have been collecting supplies for casting bullets for a while now and have as much Pewter as I do lead, and the fact that the last item on my list, the Lee 4-20 just showed up, I just about ready to start casting slugs, buckshot and bullets.
I had all the various lead and pewter samples I melted tested for content and found that because metals with higher melting temperatures can dissolve into lower melting metals to make some of the low melt alloys, I was finding copper, titanium, Iron and a few other metals I can't remember right now in my lead and pewter.
Has anyone tried just getting the lead real hot and stirring it with a copper pipe for a while to see if it dissolves?
Copper pipe with solder should add in some tin to the mix as well.

[Traffer]

Thanks for resurrecting the thread. I am also curious to see where the state of this development is at. Why does no one talk about it anymore? I had followed it long enough to know that this is no simple situation. The metallurgy and science of how these metals alloy and bond is not as simple as getting things hot enough to melt into each other. Perhaps it got to be to involved for a home shop. maybe some people who have worked in the industry could try to explain it to us laymen.

[popper]

I use 1/4 to 1/2 % Cu with all my alloy now. I go lower in Sb for pistol but stick with good WW Sb for HV rifle. Did 3 shots from 308W AR carbine, 165gr FP 2400 fps @ 200, got right at MOA. Use the same for PB in 300BO @ 2100 fps, same MOA. 50/50 with Cu seems to work well in 30/30 and BO pistol (185gr) pushed hard. Got a texas heart shot on a pig (120#?) that went tail to choppers without a problem, broke front leg & jaw. Did an alloy with just Pb, Cu & Zn for 40SW, accurate ( 165gr @~ 950 fps) but some keyholeing as I forgot it sizes smaller. Great expansion, lube groove not showing on the sideways ones. I use CuSO4 method that cleans the alloy great. Top of the pot looks mirror smooth. Convert, skim, put some beeswax on top to get the really tiny stuff. Keep the Sb greater than the Cu. Kinda like PC, once you get it, not much to tell.

[Castloader]

This thread keeps intriguing me. Has anyone figured out a straightforward way to make copper enriched alloys? If so please post. Copper is a lot easier to find than antimony or tin right now, I'd love to make some of this alloy, but reading through this thread, there doesn't seem to be anything approaching straightforward instructions that are repeatable. If anyone has insight, please post.

[archangel2003]

This thread keeps intriguing me. Has anyone figured out a straightforward way to make copper enriched alloys? If so please post. Copper is a lot easier to find than antimony or tin right now, I'd love to make some of this alloy, but reading through this thread, there doesn't seem to be anything approaching straightforward instructions that are repeatable. If anyone has insight, please post.

Well, just like Stainless Steel (2,550° to 2,790°) dissolving in melted Zinc (787.2°), (see the video Elvis Ammo did on casting Zinc bullets in a Lee Stainless Steel melting pot) if you get a piece of copper pipe and use it as a stir stick to stir the pot of tin, a small amount will dissolve into the mix.

Not sure if pure lead will dissolve copper though.

I salvage tin solder off copper pipe and when I have it tested, (scrap yards have a gun that tests metals) it they always have various amounts of copper in them, and when I add the tin to the lead, it's added because it's along for the ride in the tin.

It drives me nuts when people say salt (Melts @1474°) and sugar ( Melts @367°) melts in water, when they both have a much higher melting temp than boiling water.
The do not melt, they dissolve!

https://www.mcfeelys.com/galvanic_corrosion

Red = Most Problematic
Yellow = Problematic
White = Safe

The use of stainless steel and zinc or galvanized steel merits a red score. This combination must be avoided.

[mnewcomb59]

I have some foundry type that has about 2% copper. I have found that copper above about 0.2% makes for a terrible time with the Lee dripomatic. It seems like it plugs up constantly at any sane casting temperature that doesn't overheat the mold within a few pours. I keep a spool of thick wire that fits the bottom pour spout and dunk the wire in lead, touch it to a candle for wax, then ream the hole and then I might get 5 or 10 pours. Drop the copper down to about 0.15% and it casts fine.

I have noticed with 2-2-96 with 0.15% copper that HP mushrooms seem to work harden. Bullets that are right at the edge of finger nail scratchable before firing (the previously mentioned alloy water dropped from a 420 degree heat treat) have recovered bullets that can't be scratched on the mushroom but they can be scratched on the driving band.

The copper alloy mushrooms and the mushrooms tend to poke out at a 90 degree angle from the shank making a 65 caliber flat nose, while non copper mushrooms from the same alloy will roll the edges of the mushroom and give a profile like a 65 cal round ball. The copper bullets tend to penetrate slightly less. I have seen this effect on 1-1-98 with 0.15% copper also. Usually the copper alloy has a wider mushroom.

The work hardening seems to kick in when a bullet is skidding on the rifling also. Most bullet/load combos that shoot good but are at the upper limits of the alloy will skid some on the first driving band, then less on the middle, and none on the base band. Bump up the load another 0.5 grains and now it is skidding on the base band as well and the accuracy goes to crap and lead is deposited in the corners of the lands and grooves. With equal alloys except 0.15% copper, when the bullet is loaded just past the point where the first driving band starts to skid the copper bullets skid less. They both skid but the copper bullet might have an enlarged rifling groove on the bullet by 10% and the non copper skids more and the mark from the land is almost 50% wider.

[justindad]

<snip>

I have noticed with 2-2-96 with 0.15% copper that HP mushrooms seem to work harden. Bullets that are right at the edge of finger nail scratchable before firing (the previously mentioned alloy water dropped from a 420 degree heat treat) have recovered bullets that can't be scratched on the mushroom but they can be scratched on the driving band.

How long do you heat at 420? Do you bake in air or heat in oil?