Cast bullets with copper enriched alloy

[nighthunter]

I managed to get copper into my alloy by useing both methods being tossed around on here. I first melted copper wire into some babbit metal I had on hand. I also had some WW contaminated with zinc. I alloyed that batch with copper sulfate from a farm suppy store. $15.00 for 5 pounds. It definatly removed the zinc and the ingots do seem harder. The babbit I;m sure took the most copper so I alloyed 1 pound of it into 10 pounds of the enriched WW. I cast 1500 NOE 22-055 bullets wiqth the melt. I have to get some GC'ed and sized and lubed. I plan to try to get up to around 2500 fps in my .223 Savage 340 with a 1-12 twist. Will let you know how it works out.

[runfiverun]

2500 should be a cake walk.
to test the alloy you'll wanna go for 2800 or better.
visually cull ruthlessly and then
weight sort into 0.10 groups and keep the groups together.
use the slowest powder you can fnd data for. [4895 etc]

[popper]

More testing of Cu enriched alloys. This is good. Thanks and be sure to post results.

[badgeredd]

More testing of Cu enriched alloys. This is good. Thanks and be sure to post results.

popper, I couldn't agree more. The more people working with the idea, the better our chances of getting completely new perspectives on the subject.

Edd

[felix]

When the boolit reaches 3000 plus or so, a soft boolit does not have time to strip and streak the barrel. That should be considered when cleaning barrels and seeing no leading at the muzzle. Accuracy, however, is dependent on the boolit being in excellent condition throughout. We want the boolit to be tough enough to withstand acceleration without changing form throughout the barrel which implies the ogive portion will bounce back perfectly from its deformation after the pressure drops. ... felix

[nighthunter]

Observations to date. This alloy casts like a dream. The casting temp is higher than wthout the Cu. Bullet fillout in the mold is complete. The sprue does not dimple like with straight WW. While seperating bullets by weight today I noticed that there is very little varience. My NOE 22-055 mold is dropping bullets at an average of 63.0 grains with GC attatched but not yet sized or lubed. I checked about 250 for weight and none weighed less than 62.8 grains nor weighed more than 63.2 grains. To me this is almost unbelievable consistancy. This also says something good about NOE molds as this is a 4 cavity mold. I also cast up a bunch of 22 Bators and they weigh in at 51.9 grains with even less varience. If a bullet weighs out of regularity with either mold I always find a visual defect that I missed before weighing. I am curious about why there is so little weight varience. I just have never in over 40 years of casting had this type of success with my bullets. Gonna get some sized and lubed and then loaded up. Might be a few weeks before I get to the range. It's going to be weather dependent for awhile.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

Observations to date. This alloy casts like a dream. The casting temp is higher than wthout the Cu. Bullet fillout in the mold is complete. The sprue does not dimple like with straight WW. While seperating bullets by weight today I noticed that there is very little varience. My NOE 22-055 mold is dropping bullets at an average of 63.0 grains with GC attatched but not yet sized or lubed. I checked about 250 for weight and none weighed less than 62.8 grains nor weighed more than 63.2 grains. To me this is almost unbelievable consistancy. This also says something good about NOE molds as this is a 4 cavity mold. I also cast up a bunch of 22 Bators and they weigh in at 51.9 grains with even less varience. If a bullet weighs out of regularity with either mold I always find a visual defect that I missed before weighing. I am curious about why there is so little weight varience. I just have never in over 40 years of casting had this type of success with my bullets. Gonna get some sized and lubed and then loaded up. Might be a few weeks before I get to the range. It's going to be weather dependent for awhile.

Nighthunter

I believe you'll find that it is best to wait at least a few weeks to load the copper enhanced boolits. You'll likely find they grow a bit over the next 2 to 3 months so loading them to just touch the rifling may render them too long if they continue to grow a bit. BTW, it tickles me to see guys trying the addition of copper to their boolit alloy. Like I said above, the more that try it, the more information we'll have as a group about it. ALSO, you have tried what I intend to try very soon. I had a suspicion that adding copper via popper's method and then adding babbit with copper might yield a higher copper content...which hopefully will add to the boolit "toughness."

I'd be interested to see if you can work up to loads in the 2800-3000 fps range WITH accuracy. Please continue posting your experiences with the copper enhanced alloys. Thank you.

Edd

[45 2.1]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

[Nrut]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

Harder HP bullets than these low copper alloy bullets are used for hunting every day.

-CEB's harder HP made of brass noses blow off and cause a great amount of damage.
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/
See the "Terminal Bullet Performance" over at Accurate Reloading in the big bore Forum

-Barnes "X" copper bullets are harder also and they to kill very well.

-Or make a dual alloy nose.
-Maybe the noses can be annealed also.


I have no clue and won't know until this spring/summer until I can join the testing, but already have a supply of Super Tough and will be getting some copper sulfate next time I go to the big city.
The way I look at it there are a bunch of unanswered questions but at least we are moving forward toward Hi-Vel cast bullet shooting.
If there problems with these high copper content cast bullets for hunting they'll be worked out I am sure.
It's going to be fun!
And that's why we do this.
Cause I sure ain't saving any money by making my own bullets.

[Stephen Cohen]

This is a very interesting topic. has anyone tried casting pure lead tips, with this alloy.

[leadman]

With linotype I can hit 3K fps with the Lyman 46gr RN with decent accuracy. Oven treated WW will do it also, water quench not so well.
I used some babbit containing copper and it made a very good alloy.
Looks like I have something else to investigate!

[303Guy]

I'd like to hear more on melting the copper wire into the babbit. I tried the copper sulphate method and found it not quite so easy to do. The fumes did seem to clear my nasal congestion though!

[popper]

The fumes did seem to clear my nasal congestion though!

What fumes? Should just be water and it does make some nasty dust. Make sure you get copper sulphate if using the root killer, there is another copper solution (ammonium, I believe) that is used.

[303Guy]

I got copper sulphate sold as such. It was very 'wet'. The fumes smelled like sulphur I think - not too sure. It made me sneeze a lot and gave me a runny nose. It left a copper taste in the back of my mouth. My ventilation 'arrangement' was a failure.

[nighthunter]

I got my copper sulfate at a farm supply and feed store. It was sold by the pound @ $3.50 per pound. It is a blue granular (like sand) shape. The lady at the store said it is commonly used by farmers for many things. Try one of this type of store to be certain you get the right stuff.

Nighthunter

[John in WI]

I've never done the copper sulfate method so I'm not trying to pretend I'm an expert. But sulfate should decompose to sulfur dioxide with heating. And sulfur dioxide should have a distinctive smell. If I remember, it smells kind of like when you first light a match (not like rotten eggs which smell because of H2S not SO2)

[shadygrady]

send that zinc to me for lead

[GabbyM]

It’s a little past my bedtime here:

I’ve this pile of around 4,000 pounds of very pure Pb.
Kind of hate to contaminate it with anything.
However if I wanted to harden this pure Pb with copper. What would the process be to get it to an alloy for revolver boolits for 38 Special power level. aka BHN #12.
Then BHN #15 for the magnums.

? do I need to add zinc in order to draw the copper from the copper sulfate?

[madsenshooter]

So don't do the whole 2 tons at once! Yes, add zinc in the percentage you want to come up to with copper. Thinking maybe we got too many working on it now and will come up with lots of different formulas to sort through. 45 2.1, they will be some HP 6mm expansion tests tmrw. Red clay substituting for ballistic gelatin.

[GabbyM]

So don't do the whole 2 tons at once! Yes, add zinc in the percentage you want to come up to with copper. Thinking maybe we got too many working on it now and will come up with lots of different formulas to sort through. 45 2.1, they will be some HP 6mm expansion tests tmrw. Red clay substituting for ballistic gelatin.

well that's a pretty safe bet as I've only got a 7 quart pot. Full pot is about 80 pounds.