45-70 collar button loads

[bcr]

OK, I just got done researching this site for information on light loads for the 45-70, and it's a little bit confusing especially in terms of the fillers. I'll be using the MP 460130 CB. I bought Cream of Wheat today not knowing that using fillers is controversial and using cream of wheat is controversial. But it looks like in the straight walled 45-70 I should not have a problem with CoW as long as I fill it up to the base of the boolit. I saw several people don't like Unique for light loads in the 45-70, which I was going to try originally in addition to Bullseye, so now I think I'll just stick with 8.0 gr. of Bullseye and filled with CoW from the powder just to the base of the boolit. I may still try 10.0 gr. of Unique. Any issues with this? I won't have a chance to track down any egg foam like 45 2.1 suggests before I go to the range.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I did not see the weapon involved so IF this is a Marlin or a Winchester 86 type I would do so in mine. I would also be sure the "button" is .002 over groove and groove filled with lube . I actually like the Unique load better but the Bullseye is good too.
You might even consider 2400 with no COW as you are in that power range.
Have used COW with every straight wall or tapered case gun I own and have never had a problem. Just do as you wrote: fill the space to boolit base + a little so it is slightly compressed.
The aroma of toasted COW makes the sight of non-moving groundhogs a complete morning.
Mike in ILL

[d garfield]

I load 45-70 cast and use IMR 4759. I don't know how light you want them,but 20grns works good behind most anything.
I use the Lyman cast book.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Paco Kelly was dabbling with mouse fart or cat's sneeze loads in all sorts of guns.

[Larry Gibson]

You do not need nor do you want a filler with such a light cast bullet using such faster burning powders such as Bullseye. Bullseye is an excellent powder for such use BTW. I use 6 gr (no filler of any kind) under under a 460210 with excellent accuracy. I suggest you start at 3 gr of Bullseye and work up in 1 gr increments. Accuracy should improve at some point and then will go south long before any max load psi wise is reached. The sweet spot is what yo're looking for. Probably will be in the 850 - 1000 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[Stove_Pipe]

Look into IMR Trail Boss powder. It is my favoite for light loads in 45-70, no need to worry about fillers either.

[GH1]

For light loads Trail Boss is king in my book.
GH1

[curator]

If you are using the original "collar-button" mould and casting from pure lead with a bit of tin added, it often can be loaded deep inside unsized fired brass. My old "Ideal" collar-button mould cast at .459 which easily slipped about half way down a fires case. Lube was 50/50 bee's wax/Lard. I knocked out old primers, re-primed, used a dipper to add 5 to 6 grains of Unique or 10 grains of FFFg black powder, then pushed the bullet down as far as it would go with a pencil. Loaded this way gave more consistent (and higher) velocity and better accuracy.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you are using the original "collar-button" mould and casting from pure lead with a bit of tin added, it often can be loaded deep inside unsized fired brass. My old "Ideal" collar-button mould cast at .459 which easily slipped about half way down a fires case. Lube was 50/50 bee's wax/Lard. I knocked out old primers, re-primed, used a dipper to add 5 to 6 grains of Unique or 10 grains of FFFg black powder, then pushed the bullet down as far as it would go with a pencil. Loaded this way gave more consistent (and higher) velocity and better accuracy.

I have a group buy mould that I bought on a group buy here some time ago. Loaded as above it should be a fun plinking load or a 'I fired the big Colonel Custer gun' sort' of load for the Trapdoor and kids, ladies, beginners and general fun loving people. Thanks for that!

[Doc Highwall]

I had one of the LEE 6 cavity group buy moulds that I sold after getting the 4 cavity mould from Mihec. I also have a single cavity that I bought from Ed Schmitt who worked for Lyman before he died.

I have case up a bunch with 30:1 alloy but I have not shot them yet. But I am taking notes here for when I do.

[bcr]

Here are my results for anyone that's interested in this boolit. I ran a DOE using no filler, cream of wheat (CoW), and dacron. The CoW I filled until the load would be very slightly compressed. The dacron was a small amount that didn't fill the case completely. For each of these I loaded one set with 10.0 gr. of Unique and one with 8.0 gr. of Bullseye. It's hard for me to do very detailed experiments because we had to drive over an hour to get somewhere we could shoot.

Loading these was an interesting experience. I hadn't loaded for my 45-70 before (helped my father load for his back in the day), so I picked up some new Hornady dies. I was using new Starline brass. The seating die wouldn't seat deep enough for these boolits. I ended up pushing a few in by hand, which was quite a bit of work, and then switched to using an Irwin woodworking clamp. Obviously, this is not a great way to get 0.001" repeatability in the seating depth. The crimp was also hard to manage on the Hornady dies, although my father was working that, so I can't really comment on it. All our previous experience is with Lee and RCBS dies. He got what I thought was a little bit heavy of a crimp, but it didn't seem worth fighting the dies more. (NB: IF ANYONE HAS ANY EXPERIENCE SUCCESSFULLY SEATING THESE WITH A DIFFERENT SET OF DIES, PLEASE LET ME KNOW, I MAY STILL RETURN THEM!)

We shot the pistols first, then high powered rifles, and it was getting very windy by the time I got to the Foe-hammer (Marlin Guide Gun, iron sights). Because of the wind, I didn't get to shoot all sixty of the loads (10 of each). I shot all the Unique loads. I had one failure to fire with 10 gr. of Unique and the boolit jumped forward a little bit, maybe .05", but didn't leave the case. I believe the primer didn't detonate the powder. Presumably if I had tapped the side of the receiver it would have gone off, but I don't think I'll load any more without filler. It was a little difficult to see too much about accuracy, shooting seated on my butt with heavy winds, but even in these conditions I think the Unique loads were easily staying in 2" at 50 ft. If anything, there may have been a slight accuracy edge with the dacron filler, but probably not significant in the conditions. I backed up to 100 feet with the Bullseye/dacron loads and accuracy seemed comparable. The Bullseye/no filler and Bullseye/CoW will have to wait for another day.

Man, were these ever a blast to shoot! It's great fun to hear the WHACK of the boolit hitting the dirt bank behind the targets. This will probably be my new favorite gun and load for plinking if I can get the reloading kinks worked out.

[Dave Bulla]

IF ANYONE HAS ANY EXPERIENCE SUCCESSFULLY SEATING THESE WITH A DIFFERENT SET OF DIES, PLEASE LET ME KNOW, I MAY STILL RETURN THEM!

I load mine with the old Lee Classic loader kit. Lots of adjustment and you can seat pretty much any bullet. A new kit only costs about $28 at Cabela's. It is worth purchasing a 45 caliber case mouth expander from Lee for a couple bucks if you want to load cast boolits. You have to look up the parts for the Lee Loader sets and go to the 45 colt or some other 45 cal pistol kit to find the expander. It's standard for pistol kits but not rifle kits.

I load my collar buttons with 8 to 10 grains of Unique with no added filler of any sort and they shoot great. The only lube is I think "rooster jacket" but I've also tried hand lubing with grease/wax type lube but find it's not really needed and it also takes a LOT of lube to fill that big monster lube groove.

[bcr]

Thanks Dave Bulla, I will take a look for the Lee Classic loader kit. I used 45/45/10 and didn't notice any leading. I had one primer-only misfire in one of the loads with no filler, so I think I'll stick with filler from now on.

[Nose Dive]

Werid you had a 'misfire' and the bullet moved in the case. Hmmmm... Did you dissassemble that round? Sound's like we may have missed charging it with powder.... Interesting....

As to powder...I stand by UNIQUE... Pistols, Scatter guns, rifles... I bought a 20 lb tub way back when and used every grain for anything I reload. Keep in mind, I do not own a 'varied' arsenal. Used to have a lot of 'magnums', but all are now gone. I have reverted to the older, 'more established' rounds. Or, that is what I call the 44/40, 45/70 and the like. I really haven't topped off my long case rounds in a while. Like you, I found the Dacron was most reliable and ease of installation. I might just pack my next batch of 45's and 45/70's just to test packed against unpacked in an accuracy race. We shall see.

And no, I haven't seen the 20 pound cans of powder being offered lately. But, I have not looked.

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.