Almost 45/70

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Met with a member of this forum this past Saturday, over a good breakfast at the Breakfast Club in down town Moscow, Ideeeeho.

Won't mention any names here, but if he sees this post, he can chime in if he so desires.

Other then the sharing during this first time meeting, the fellow brought along a cartridge that looked at first like a 45/50. The case head marking were something new to me.

He also brought along a case he had formed from a .348 Winchester hull, with the goal in mind of getting this rifle actively shooting again.

After breakfast, we made a trip to the parking lot where I did get to see the rifle, an old military rolling block with a looong barrel which appeared to be in beautiful shape, bright and sharp it entire length.

Apparently the rifle had been shot with 45/70 ammo by the former owner, with each firing resulting in a split case. It wasn't until a trip through a gun show where this new friend happened to spot a rifle like his and then learned what he had, that the whole picture began to unfold. The rifle is a 11.7X56R and as such, is slightly larger then the 45/70 in case size.

It is apparently, of the correct bore size to shoot cast 45/70 boolits.

Should be a real deer and elk slayer if he is able to get a brass supply formed.

Interesting!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Tatume]

Hi Coot,

43 Danish, aka 11.7X56R, loaded ammo is available, though expensive. For example:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...57957&CAT=4171

Also see:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...47-11-7-Danish

Take care, Tom

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Tom,

I'll pass along the info!

CDOC

[montana_charlie]

Guys who shoot patched to bore paper patched bullets, but who don't want to resize their case mouths, often buy Norma basic brass. By the time it is shortened to the desired length for their .45/whatever, the wall thickness at the mouth is considerably more that the standard 10 thousandths.

Because more metal is available, that brand of case, shortened and annealed, should be formable to the chamber your friend has.

CM

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, thanks for posting this. I am the guilty individual with this rifle and appreciate everyone's input on it. As Crusty said it is an exceptional rifle having been cared for very well over it's long career. This rifle was a wedding gift to my wife and I from her uncle. He was a packer/outfitter for many years in the state of Idaho. His lodge/headquarters was at the confluence of the North Fork and Little North Fork Clearwater River, now under the water of Dworshack Reservoir. The rifle means a great deal to my wife and I but not as a wallhanger. It is in such fine shape and has so much character it just needs to keep on working in our opinions. Hence this search. I am sure I can reform .348 brass, I just need to get the proper dies from Buffalo Arms and then start casting and loading for it. A few yrs back I did slug the barrel and it measured right at .458 if I remember correctly. Still have the slug so I just gotta find it and confirm. I know for a fact that mine likes to split the 45-70 brass so not gonna use it, I will reform. I may order those dies for my birthday and start in on it. I know that you guys on this site are a wealth of information so now is probably a good time to get going on it. Thanks all for the input. JW

[Tatume]

Hi JW,

You might want to place the order early, as Buffalo Arms indicates they are out of stock. However, you could also try CH Tool and Die, as they make the dies that Buffalo Arms sells. Good luck with it; I'm sure you'll enjoy putting it back to wok.

Take care, Tom

[I'll Make Mine]

The other brass source I recall reading about for .43 Spanish is 24 gauge brass shotshells from Magtech. If you load with black powder and paper patch your bullets, you really won't find you need to size much after initial forming (but you'll certainly need dies to form the brass if you don't buy loaded ammunition to start).

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Morn'in Mule,

Just a thought here, but what about the possiblity of a charge of fast powder, small of course, in a 348 case (Not more then 30 gr or so of Bullseye ), topped off with a slug of cream of wheat. I wonder if that would form the brass.?.?

Anyone out there try this????

As per boolits, you could try some of my boolits sized .460 and I really think that considering the boolits are of like size, it is very likely we can make loads with the 45/70 dies, just making sure to only size the mouth and boolit gripping portion of the case.

I once developed loads for a friend's 300 H&H with my 300 Win Mag dies, as unless the pressures are high, many times you can repeatedly shoot and rechamber a case without sizing anything more then the neck of the case to assure good neck to boolit fit.

Just a thought here.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

By the way Mule, I've found Buffalo Arms to be a good place to buy.

CDOC

[DrtRacr09]

Well I've not formed almost 45-70, I have made 41 Swiss from 348's. 10 gr Bullseye, 1/4 sheet toilet paper, cornmeal/cream o' wheat topped with mystery lube melted out of used sizers. Gets case pretty close, one full load of Black will finish it off. Just remember, if they need an initial length trim, leave em long as they will shorten during forming.

[curator]

Crusty,

If indeed it is a Danish Remington, the caliber could be either 11.7X51R or 11.7X57R as they were imported in both sizes. The original guns were made in a 11.7X46 rim fire then later converted to the longer center fire cartridges. I few of the rifles were converted to center fire but not re-chambered so any configuration is possible. It is best to make a chamber cast before ordering cases. BuffaloArms is a good source for brass. While some people have and do shoot .45-70 cartridges in these guns, the chamber and bore is somewhat larger that .45-70. Split cases and poor accuracy is common doing this. I have one of these rifles and shoot it often. I have seen others with similar rifles use a wrap or two of electrician's tape around the case head of a .45-70 case to get the undersize case to center in the chamber with OK results. Nonetheless, the bore is bigger than standard .45-70 bullets. Mine slugs out to .465" groove diameter. I paper patch .458 slugs up to .466 diameter and get excellent accuracy using 20 to 23 grains of SR4759 or 60 grains of FFg Goex.

[Chicken Thief]

No. No. No. No
The correct caliber is 11.4x51R.
Only about 200 experimental rifles were ever chambered 11.4x56R!!!!!!!!!
Usually the rifles has a way long throat, but none the less the correct caliber is 11.4x51R.
Actual caliber can be anything from .443" to 463" and 45-70 with the rim trimmed will fireform just fine.
A snip of electrical tabe just above the rim will aid fireforming and prevent splits.

I made a lenghty explanation on this a few months back but the search function plays tricks on me.

[Chicken Thief]

Give me a couple of days and i'll do the entire write up again
The way long throats has to do with caliber variation and the conversion to smokeless and jacketed.
Be patient, i'm slobbing red wine right now

[Duckiller]

Don't mess with 348 Win brass. We who have model 71's NEED it .

[Chicken Thief]

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 60 grains of BP to a 390 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith wich was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comed problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You cant design a standard round with jacketed that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only @200 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground hammer.

[Idaho Mule]

I am paying attention here guys. Chamber cast I believe would be advisable. Chicken Thief seems to be well informed here and my ears are on. JW

[skeettx]

Duckiller
Midway has 348 brass
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/738...ster-box-of-50

ALSO

The Remington GREEN BOX 45-70 ammo shoots just great in my 11.7 Danish

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SS_66234

After initial shooting, I just neck size to hold the bullets.

Mike

[curator]

Chicken Thief,
Thanks for the perspective from Denmark. The historical information is greatly appreciated. Even though only 200 rifles were chambered for the 11.4X56R cartridge, thousands of the Danish rolling block rifles were "rechambered" by running a .45-70 (11.4X54R) chamber reamer into the breech by importers when they arrived on this side of the pond. Buffaloarms lists Danish Remington cases as 11.5X47R, 11.7X51R and 11.7X56R, regardless of what is the correct designation in Denmark. The Buffalo Arms 11.7X56R case works very well in the rifles with the butchered .45-70 rechambering. The cases I have from them are made from .348 Winchester brass which has a case-head size correct for the original chamber. Rim's don't need to be trimmed for rechambered guns. These are wonderful rifles and most over here seem to have very good bores. Mine has a groove diameter of .462. They make great shooters if you can find brass that fits the chamber on your rifle. The rifling twist rate is a bit slower than out military .45-70 which was 1 turn in 22 inches. My Dane appears to have a twist of about 1 turn in 28 inches. It shoots the Lee .458-405HB bullet quite accurately but not ones that are much longer.

[Idaho Mule]

Thanks again for the replies guys. I was out of town for a few days there, had to ring in the New Year with my brothers. I hope to find time in the next few days to drag that rifle out of the safe and do some measuring, maybe post some pictures. Tomorrow I HAVE to get some casting done as I am low on boolits. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

JW,

As I recall you said you know Cliff B.

I have watched him do a chamber cast with sulfur.

Put a patch down the barrel and pour the melted sulfur into the chamber.

Likely not a good thing to do in mama's kitchen

CDOC