Clips that work ... and some that don't

[Bob S]

For those that actually get away from the bench rest, and shoot their Springfields across-the-course (with cast bullets, of course!), this may prove useful...

Some clips that work …

I get asked, in person and on the web, what clips I use for the ’03. Usually, this is from an individual who has gotten a few of the “real” US GI clips, and has found out the hard way that these tend to fall apart after one use. They have small tabs on the ends of the spring that hold the cartridges in the clip. When the cartridges are pushed out of the clip, the small tab bends out of the way, and the cartridges can be stripped into the magazine. The springs have virtually no tension when the clip has no cartridges in it, and the spring will fall out of the clip body. Even with cartridges in the clip, there is insufficient tension to retain the cartridges without those little tabs on the end. To successfully re-use the clip, both tabs need to be intact, and bent back “up” to hold the cartridges. You may be able to do this once before the tabs snap off. Once the tabs are gone, simply picking up a full clip usually results in cartridges falling out. This is not conducive to good rapid-fire scores. A few GI clips in good condition are neat for display, but for actual use, there are much better options.

The absolute best are the stainless steel “match” clips that are sold by Champion’s Choice, Champion Shooters Supply, and probably others, for about 4 bucks a pair. Considering that 2 bucks is what I see people paying for the fall-apart US GI clips, these “match” clips are a real bargain … and they are rock-reliable. But there’s an even better bargain.

Swedish Mauser clips are minutely different in dimensions from the US clips, but they are so close that they have worked perfectly for me for many years. And, they are still available in quantity for very reasonable prices. I bought several unopened boxes of 40 clips each from SAMCO for $14 each. These also fit my Model 70 International and my South American 7mm Mausers (and the Columbian .30 conversions).

Swedish Mauser clip in an 03: Note that the lugs on the clip engage the notches in the 03 clip seat.



The Greek ball ammunition that hit the surplus market about 1998 was packed in aluminum stripper clips, and these fit properly, and work OK, but they are not as smooth or as durable as the Swedes. One collector told me that these aluminum clips were actually made in France, and are very similar to the French 7.5 x 54 clips. All of mine are stamped “7.62” on the base, along with maker’s initials and a date code:




AFAIK, all of the Greek ammunition that CMP is currently selling is packed either in 20 round cartons, or M1 clips.

I have been told that the Danish clips fit the clip seat and work OK, but they have a heavy phosphate coating that makes them a little “sticky”. Unfortunately, I missed out on the Danish ammo when it hit the surplus market, so this is anecdotal.

If you like brass clips, South American 7mm Mauser clips fit perfectly and work very well. Unfortunately, they are not always readily available, and can be pricey. I could not find my “stash” of them when I was taking pictures for this article.


And some that don’t ….

Probably the most ubiquitous clip these days is the 7.62 “NATO” clip. US 7.62 x 51 ball ammo came packed in these, as well as British Commonwealth ammo, and many of our Alliance partners. Often these are available for the asking, so it’s no wonder that they get used (or attempted to get used) for Springfields. The NATO clips have a single lug in the middle of the clip body, instead of two lugs near each end. The body is also narrower than the ’03 clips. The result is that the clip doesn’t seat properly in an ’03.





The clip body is not narrow enough to slip into the magazine, so if you use some “finesse”, you can make it work; but you could also end up very frustrated.

The next pic shows what happens if you attempt to use an 8mm Mauser clip: the body is so narrow that the whole clip with cartridges and all will enter the magazine. Not good!




For the observant ones: yes, those cartridges are 7.62 practice dummies; and no, that rifle is not chambered in 7.62. I have an Israeli K98k in 7.62, and a Yugo 24/47 with a Wilson military profile .308 barrel on it. I just borrowed one of the practice clips for a “prop” here.

One obstacle to smooth clip-loading an ’03 is the ejector. It sits almost directly beneath the clip slot:




With the bolt in the fully-retracted position, the ejector is free to flop about on its pivot axis, and since Murphy is alive and well, it is most likely to be in the position in the photo above: right in the way. The “trick” is to get the clip body behind the ejector, like so:




To get the clip body in this position, you need to ensure that the bottom of the full clip is angled slightly toward the butt when you push it down. Once the clip body is seated behind the ejector, the first round out of the clip will easily push the ejector completely out of the way. I also give the full clip a little side-to-side shake to make certain that it is properly seated before pushing the cartridges home.

No go and shoot ‘em all in the middle!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[BruceB]

Excellent review and photos, Bob.

Many years back, early 1970s, we in Canada were able to buy like-new Ljungmann AG42B 6.5x55 autoloaders for about $40.00 (yes, forty dollars!), and these were intended for loading from strippers. Such items didn't seem to be available anywhere my pals and I could locate, so one of us wrote directly to Norma in Sweden, figuring that since they made millions of 6.5 rounds, they probably knew something about clips, too, and perhaps could give us an address for buying some.

We got no response from Norma at all.......except that about two months later, a box arrived in the Northwest Territories all the way from Sweden containing about four hundred 6.5 strippers! Even stranger, there was NO CHARGE! How's that for service? I've had a very soft spot for Norma ever since, and I still have a few of those strippers around here somewhere. It's a very useful bit of info, knowing they'll work in the '03 rifles.

Thanks, Bob.

[StarMetal]

Here's supposely an original 03 brass clip.

[Bob S]

Joe:

Looks like a 7mm Mauser clip. All U.S. GI clips had rounded ends on the clip body, and tabs on the spring. It oughta work, though.

Those cartridges look like frangibles.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

I got to investigating. This is interesting. My best friend is a collector and usually he knows his stuff. I first took out my 98 Mauser 7x57. Now way that clip I pictured would fit, it was too thick (not width, but thickness). Then I punched in 1903 stpipper clips on google. I found a picture of a steel set that look similar to mine. I'll post that below. Then I punched into ebay. Yeah I know, not a real good place, but they had both. The ones like you mentioned and ones just like mine. I'm confused to say the least. I have some 8x57 Mauser clips that are brass and they are very thin, almost as thin as original 7.65 Argentine mauser clips for the 1891's. Here's the one pic I found. By the way this was on somekind of official Springfield page.

Joe

[garandsrus]

Bob S,

I also use the Swedish Mauser clips. As you said, they work great!

What bullet and load have you shot across the course with an 03? With the reduced loads I have used so far, I have the sight setting around 400 yds just to get to the 100 yd target! I think the sight setting for the 200 yd target was 8 or 900 yards. I am shooting an 03A3.

Are you still shooting high power? When did you go distinguished and what rifle(s) did you use? I will be shooting a Leg match in a couple weeks. I shot the P100 and NTI at Perry last year and had a good time. I hope to get points there this year!

John

[Frank46]

Bob, try using some 600 grit wet or dry silicon carbide paper on those clips with the heavy phosphate coating. Should make things go easier. In fact I have used this trick on the inside of the M1 en bloc clips to remove the heavy parkerizing. Worked much better. Also for those of you that have sks's those clips can be polished up as well. And last but not least the 5 rd clips for the enfield. As they usually come they have burrs on the inside from when they were stamped. And on the sides as well. A little time spent polishing with the 600 grit paper and the rounds feed much better out of the clip. But the stainless steel 5 rd clips as sold by champions choice are the best. Frank

[Vly]

Bob S - Excellent post and photos. Thanks for the good information.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I use these in my M17 and they work better than the originals. They are black with a matte finish.

[Bob S]

Mick:

Yup



Australian Mk 3 charger is the same as "NATO". Shown in my M1917; the lugs don't engage in the seats, fits kind of sloppy, but you can make them work.



Swede clip seats perfectly:





Unlike the M1903 and 03A3, there is nothing in the loading path, and these M1917's will almost load themselves

Just a shot of the backsight, a rare experimental proposed, but not adopted for the 1918 National Matches:




Joe:

There are exceptions to everything, I guess. The photo that you posted is a clip full of Hoffer-Thompson loading adaptors for the original .22RF Gallery Practice M1903. Each of the little steel adaptors was loaded with a .22 short; the rifle had a .22 barrel. The training value was that you loaded it with a clip like it's cal .30 big brother; the bolt throw was the same as the .30 service rifle; weight (within reason), stock, sights all the same as the .30 service rifle (unlike the later M1922 and variants). The fatal flaw was that accuracy sucked, and when you ejected those steel "adaptors", the muzzles dented badly when they hit the concrete floor of the gallery range, making them sort of useless. Just one of those little adaptors, if in undamaged condition, will get you well over $100 on eBay! Back to topic ... even though the Hoffer-Thompson was an "issue" item, it was "issued" with clips that were intended to be re-used ... so they had no tabs, and the springs were retained like a Mauser clip. Whether the bodies had rounded ends or not, I can't say, cuz I don't believe I ever saw one. They were made commercially under gov't contract. In the picture, it appears that the ends are rounded. The rounded ends on the US clips will help to "muscle" the M1903 ejector out of the way.

I use Turk one-piece brass 8mm clips for my Argentines ... I file the lugs off the side of the clip body, and they fit and work perfectly.

John:

I distinguished in 1989; I got my first leg with a Mk2-1 (Navy M1 with 7.62 barrel) and finished with a heavy match M14. I was shooter, coach, and sometimes captain of the Navy rifle team from 1986 to 1993, when I retired. I have not fired in a registered match since then, so I have lost my Master classification. All of my shooting since then has been with old military stuff, and mostly with cast bullets, in "local-yokel" as-issued matches. I started shooting high power in 1965 with an 03A3/Lyman 48 and cast bullets; took time off for my first hitch in the Navy, got out in 1972, picked up the 03A3 again, and made Master for the first time in 1973, with that rifle and cast bullets at 200 and 300 yards. Had to resort to Sierra 168 grain Internationals for 600 yards, but a lot of the matches were only 200 and 300 yards, the prone slow fire being fired on reduced targets at 300. "The Load" was 311284 and 40 or 42 grains of WW II surplus 4831. These days, I shoot more 311291's with from 15 to 18 grains of 2400, and mostly at 100 and 200 yards. The load works well out to 200. On my '03's it takes about 54 clicks on my O'Hare micrometer to get centered up at 200 yards, and that translates to about 800-850 yards on the leaf.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

I was wondering what the devil those rounds were in that clip. You know your stuff. By the way in my first pictures those were fragibles in that clip. There were three fragibles and two armor piercing.

Whenever I get to talk to my best friend again I'll query him as to those clips he gave me. I will tell you some interesting stuff he has . You recall the govt thought about going to that 276 round (basically a 270) for our service rifle. Well he has the actuall unloaded brass, the military bullet heads, and I believe a can of military powder for it. All this is in official military packaging. Now I've seen this as he showed it to me. He had told me that some folks don't believe the govt was going to switch and said here's some proof.

Joe

[trooperdan]

Bob, I plan to shoot at Perry this year and I've entered the Garand match, the M1 carbine match and the Springfield match where I plan to shoot my '03A3. I'm an unclassified shooter that has just recently fired a Garand match for the first time. I was on a base level rifle team in the army.. about three and a half decades ago and that was shooting M14 and M16's!

I was actually pleased with my scores, they used the reduced target and everything was fired at 200 yards. Prone slow fire I had 94 and 95, prone rapid was 97, sitting 88 and 50 off-hand. Excuse time; I had only a tee shirt, no jacket and it was windy as heck!

Anyway, your tips on competing with the '03 are very useful and timely. I'll be putting together some cast loads this week to try the '03 out.. I've never fired it yet! Advice is welcomed, even encouraged!

[garandsrus]

Bob,

Very impressive! Thanks for the history... I wonder how many Distinguished Shooters there are on this board? I wouldn't think there are very many as there aren't very many Distinguished Shooters period. I have my Masters classification and hope to get to High Master this year. I have shot some High Master scores, but not consistently enough to get there.

Trooperdan,

You will need to shoot the "issued" ammo at Perry this year, except possibly for the carbine match. The 30-06 will be the Greek surplus the CMP sells. I shoots very well for me. If you don't want to buy an entire can from the CMP, let me know and I will send you a bandolier or two. I think the cost is about .24/round.

At Perry this year I will be shooting the Garand, Springfield, and Vintage Bolt Match (with a Swiss K31). I am also shooting two "serious" matches, the Presidents 100 and National Trophy Individual match, both with an AR-15.

I bought the "40 pack" of Mauser stripper clips, so I have more than I will ever use as they are re-usable. If you need some, let me know.

Good luck!
John

[trooperdan]

John said:

I bought the "40 pack" of Mauser stripper clips, so I have more than I will ever use as they are re-usable. If you need some, let me know.

Good luck!
John[/QUOTE]

John, thanks for the offer but I also ordered a box of the Swede stripper today.. SAMCO won't understand the sudden run on those strippers!

I've also recieved a can of the Greek ammo; I wanted a standard to try and duplicate with my reloads.. I'd never considered using cast boolits for practise much less competiton. Sure would cut down on the price of practice!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick:

Yup



Australian Mk 3 charger is the same as "NATO". Shown in my M1917; the lugs don't engage in the seats, fits kind of sloppy, but you can make them work.



Swede clip seats perfectly:





Unlike the M1903 and 03A3, there is nothing in the loading path, and these M1917's will almost load themselves

Just a shot of the backsight, a rare experimental proposed, but not adopted for the 1918 National Matches:




Joe:

There are exceptions to everything, I guess. The photo that you posted is a clip full of Hoffer-Thompson loading adaptors for the original .22RF Gallery Practice M1903. Each of the little steel adaptors was loaded with a .22 short; the rifle had a .22 barrel. The training value was that you loaded it with a clip like it's cal .30 big brother; the bolt throw was the same as the .30 service rifle; weight (within reason), stock, sights all the same as the .30 service rifle (unlike the later M1922 and variants). The fatal flaw was that accuracy sucked, and when you ejected those steel "adaptors", the muzzles dented badly when they hit the concrete floor of the gallery range, making them sort of useless. Just one of those little adaptors, if in undamaged condition, will get you well over $100 on eBay! Back to topic ... even though the Hoffer-Thompson was an "issue" item, it was "issued" with clips that were intended to be re-used ... so they had no tabs, and the springs were retained like a Mauser clip. Whether the bodies had rounded ends or not, I can't say, cuz I don't believe I ever saw one. They were made commercially under gov't contract. In the picture, it appears that the ends are rounded. The rounded ends on the US clips will help to "muscle" the M1903 ejector out of the way.

I use Turk one-piece brass 8mm clips for my Argentines ... I file the lugs off the side of the clip body, and they fit and work perfectly.

John:

I distinguished in 1989; I got my first leg with a Mk2-1 (Navy M1 with 7.62 barrel) and finished with a heavy match M14. I was shooter, coach, and sometimes captain of the Navy rifle team from 1986 to 1993, when I retired. I have not fired in a registered match since then, so I have lost my Master classification. All of my shooting since then has been with old military stuff, and mostly with cast bullets, in "local-yokel" as-issued matches. I started shooting high power in 1965 with an 03A3/Lyman 48 and cast bullets; took time off for my first hitch in the Navy, got out in 1972, picked up the 03A3 again, and made Master for the first time in 1973, with that rifle and cast bullets at 200 and 300 yards. Had to resort to Sierra 168 grain Internationals for 600 yards, but a lot of the matches were only 200 and 300 yards, the prone slow fire being fired on reduced targets at 300. "The Load" was 311284 and 40 or 42 grains of WW II surplus 4831. These days, I shoot more 311291's with from 15 to 18 grains of 2400, and mostly at 100 and 200 yards. The load works well out to 200. On my '03's it takes about 54 clicks on my O'Hare micrometer to get centered up at 200 yards, and that translates to about 800-850 yards on the leaf.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Its funny, but I just bought 20 Swede clips for a MAS36 as i am under the impression the cases are about the same. I didn't hesitate to buy them becuse they are drying up and there are lots swede shooters around here. Looks like they will be extra useful. Can't have too many clips I always say.

My friend had big problems getting clips to work in his Israeli mauser. At the crucial moment, they would slip down and jam the action. I was thinking aout gluing a nut or piece of plastic/whatever on the back to act as a stop. Never got around to it as I wasn't the one having the problems.

What clips work in mausers with 308s?

[Frank46]

In the jue issue of small arms review tey were discussing the new chines rifle cartride. One of the authors ahs said that because of the bean crunchers they would have to use corrosive powders. Now I have heard that some early powders
llight sharpshooter ot lightening tended to be erosive due to the amount of the nitro that was in the powders chemica makeup would casue the rifling to wera outmuchfaster than earlier powders. The author of the article did say corrosive poweders were used. I'm thinking that maybe their terminology went south. The primer in the new cartridge is suppose to be corrosive. Rather than the powder.
So if anyone can expand on this I for one would be greatful. Frank

[floodgate]

Frank:

Back around 1900 when the "nitro" smokeless powders came into wide usage, there was a lot of concern about the "corrosion" that was seen in the barrels of rifle using it for the new "high power" loads. That's why you saw - and still see - things like Hoppe's No.9 "Nitro Powder Solvent". It took about twenty years for people to realize that while the early, hot nitro powders WERE Erosive - not CORrosive - the main problem lay with the residues of the chlorate primers that came into use about the same time, which were, basically, salt, drew moisture and rusted the steel. This was not a problem with the older black powder loadings, since washing out the "gunk" it left behind also washed away the primer salts. The chlorate primers, though, give good ignition, last well in storage under poor condition, are simple and reliable and thus were retained for military use until well after WWII. The .30 Carbine round was loaded from the beginning - in this country at least - with non-corrosive primers, but the .30-'06 Frankford Arsenal loads still used the chlorate primers into the '50's, as did most military rounds loaded overseas. Hope this helps answer your question.

floodgate

[floodgate]

Frank:

Back around 1900 when the "nitro" smokeless powders came into wide usage, there was a lot of concern about the "corrosion" that was seen in the barrels of rifle using it for the new "high power" loads. That's why you saw - and still see - things like Hoppe's No.9 "Nitro Powder Solvent". It took about twenty years for people to realize that while the early, hot nitro powders WERE Erosive - not CORrosive - the main problem lay with the residues of the chlorate primers that came into use about the same time, which were, basically, salt, drew moisture and rusted the steel. This was not a problem with the older black powder loadings, since washing out the "gunk" it left behind also washed away the primer salts. The chlorate primers, though, give good ignition, last well in storage under poor condition, are simple and reliable and thus were retained for military use until well after WWII. The .30 Carbine round was loaded from the beginning - in this country at least - with non-corrosive primers, but the .30-'06 Frankford Arsenal loads still used the chlorate primers into the '50's, as did most military rounds loaded overseas. Hope this helps answer your question.

floodgate

[Bob S]

"What clips work in mausers with 308s?"

That sorta depends on what particular "Mauser" we're talking about. If it originated as a South American 7x 57, then it would take the same clips as the Springfield, since that's what we gringos copied after the Span-Am war. If it originated as a K98k, then it would take the "skinny" 8mm clips. If it's a Swede (yes, some Swedes were made or converted to 7.62 in the 50's and 60's as experimental, or target rifles), it would use the Swedish clips (duh!).

If it's an Israeli, it's crap shoot. The Israelis, in the early days of the State of Israel, and the Haganah just prior, used anything and everything they ncould get their mits on ... they eventually standardized on the K98k pattern in 7.92 x 57 mm, and those that originated as K98k's should use the normal "8mm" clips, like those that come on the Turk and Yugo surplus 7.92 x 57 ammo.

One of the few countries who would do business with the Israelis ( or Haganah) in the immediate post-WW II period was the Czechs. A lot of the K98k's that ended up in Palestine/Israel were funneled through the Czechs, and they included ex-Nazi K98k's of various manufacturers, and Vz- whatevers of post-war and pre-war manufacture. There may have been some of the Vz's that were intended for the South American market, but never delivered there due to the intervening war. I have heard of, but not seen, Vz-23's and Vz-24's with Israeli markings. These would probably use the standard South American 7mm clips, as it is difficult the make the clip seat smaller, unless some "insert" was used.

Talking about an Israeli mix-master ... my Israeli is a 243 1940 K98k (Mauserwerk Borsigwald, near Berlin) with the usual Nazi Waffeampts, and also Swedish inspection and proof stamps, and it's in a Spanish stock. It is one of a few thousand K98k's that the Germans "traded" to Sweden in 1939 and 1940 for ball bearings and steel. It served briefly with the Swedes as a Model 1939 carbine ... some were rechambered to the Swedish 8 x 63 heavy machine gun cartridge, some were left in the original 7.92 x 57. Mine probably was not rechambered, as it does not have the "notch" in the receiver ring for the longer MG cartridge. They were not popular with the Swedish soldiers, and were withdrawn from Swedish service after a short time. Following the cessation of hostilities in Europe, the Swedes wished to divest themselves of any association with Nazi Germany, and sold all of the K98k's in its possession to the Haganah. Whether they were "laundered" through the Czechs, I could not discover. The rifle was most likely used in the Israeli war for independence as a 7.92; it was converted to 7.62 in 1957, as that's the date on the barrel that came with it when I got it. I was told that the Israelis sold a number of their 7.62 Mauser conversions to "a South American country" after the 1973 war, where they were rode hard, put away wet, and then imported here. That may be where mine got it's Spanish stock. I got it from Ellison's several years ago for $75; the barrel was totally roached: I replaced it with an Israeli replacement barrel dated 1969 that I found on ePay. Interesting piece of history. BTW, it uses regular "8mm Mauser” clips. I use German ones or the Turkish one-piece brass ones. The two-piece Turkish clips, both brass and steel, grip the cartridges so well that you have to hit them with a hammer (figuratively, of course!) to strip them into the magazine.

Sort of a round-about response to a simple question, my apologies ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

I got a Brazilian 1908 98 Mauser in 7x57....my Springfield clips won't fit it...too thick.

Wonder why the Swedes didn't like the 8mm 98 Mausers?

Joe