Figurin out some thangs, need a little hep

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Ok, after spending some time with Rich and his set up, I've got back home and pulled out some of my stuff. I can see I originally planned to set up for production ingot making and bullet casting, based on the items I have.

My turkey cooker has a 7 quart cast iron Dutch oven with a handle built in and a lid, which I'm thinking is a good thing to help hold in heat. The base is welded half inch rod and seems pretty sturdy, I can remove the burner from the setup, but there's no convenient way to keep the shield and "pot rest" without cutting the steel rod base out. I'm thinking I'd probably be better off to set it up on a couple 8" hollow concrete blocks (I can get these or pavers for free.) rather than try to put it on a table.

So the bottom line is I'm going to have two setups. One for medium volume smelting operations and another (Based on a 4-20 Lee bottom pour and copying Rich's set up.) for casting bullets.

My questions are on the smelting operation:

I already have enough 1.5" angle iron (on hand and paid for) to make three 11.5" long, four gang ingot molds with handles based on BruceB's model. This will allow me to produce 4 molds of three pounds each = 12 pounds of lead per mold times three molds - 36 pounds each time all three are filled. Fill them three times and you have 108 pounds, likely about what will fill up a 50 caliber ammo can.(100 pounds, I"ve read.) So I'll need on the third run to not fill three gangs of the the last mold to get right at 100 pounds.

My concern is not overloading my turkey cooker. I can calculate how much weight it is designed for based on the fill volume of the 7 quart dutch oven with cooking oil. I figure I'd be best off to melt down only that much lead.

Does anyone know how much weight lead creates in a quart volume? Having this value, I can easily calculate how much lead to put in my turkey cooker to not over weight it.

Also, does the type of mold described above need some mold release sprayed into it? I know about the Frankford Arsenal mold release. Is there something locally available I might can substitue with good effect?

Thank you for your assistance,

Dave

[wills]

Weight of lead
http://www.tesarta.com/www/resources...ts.html#Metals


Online conversions
http://www.onlineconversion.com

[Bman]

Dave, you might not want to worry about over smelting. I find it's best to leave some lead in the pot when smelting WW. It melts quicker and helps the rest get going. Also for me it is not real easy to guesstimate how much lead I will end up with from a pot full of scrap. My cast iron smelting pot when piled as full as I can get it with WW ends up less than 2/3 full when they all melt down. Easiest thing might be to start smelting and quit when you have enough ingots made up. Leave what you don't need right then in the smelitng pot and get to casting!

[Underclocked]

23.7.... figure 24 pounds per quart.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Will,

Thanks for the links.


Based on the information derived from the two websites, a quart of motor oil weighs about 1.848 pounds. I'm guessing a quart of cooking oil will weigh close to that. Assuming a 20% fudge factor by the designer of the cooker, it should be able to hold easily 16 pounds and possibly as much as 24 pounds if he used a 30% fudge factor.

If I did my math right, a quart of lead weighs just a bit below 23 pounds of lead. So I'm guessing I should be able to get away with loading my 7 quart pot with 24 pounds of molten lead without reinforcing it at all. What I'm not sure of is how much of the pan that would fill before removing clips and fluxing. Can someone advise?

Am I being too conservative in my estimates?

Dave

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I forgot to mention I also have a thermometer. What's a good temperature to set for initially with a turkey cooker and what's a good temperature once the initial wheel weights have become molten?

Thanks again,

Dave

[fourarmed]

If your turkey burner is anything like the two I own, it will hold up all the lead you can get in that dutch oven.

[wills]

Might just stand on that turkey cooker. See if it holds you. Fill that Dutch oven about 2/3 full of WW, pick it up, if it weighs less than you, you’re probably all right.

[Maven]

Dave in FB, GA: If you want a good, readily available and reasonably priced mold-releasing agent, go to a NAPA automotive parts store and ask for "dgf 123" (dry graphite film in an alcohol base; aerosol can). You can use it on bullet molds too, but too much will decrease the diameter of CB's by at least .001".

[libbyman]

DONT fill a 50 cal. ammo can with your ingots!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you are the strong man from the circus.
A 30 cal ammo can with WW will weigh 50 lbs + or - a few lbs.
Libbyman

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Might just stand on that turkey cooker. See if it holds you. Fill that Dutch oven about 2/3 full of WW, pick it up, if it weighs less than you, you’re probably all right.

LOL, wills, I weight about 250. I'm pretty sure if I stand on it, I won't have to worry about it holding wheel weights, cause I'll crush it. (grin) Based on what you and forearmed said, I think I'll try 2/3'rds full of unsmelted WW and see if'n it kin handle it. If'n it kin without strain, I'll up it to full of unsmelted WW's and process from there.

Maven,

Thanks for the tip on the dgf 123. Lot quicker to hit the NAPA than to wait on Midway to ship.

I appreciate it gentlemen. Now I just gotta get those three molds built.

Regards,

Dave

[Dale53]

Dave;
I have a pretty sturdy turkey cooker. My regular smelting pot will hold about 80 lbs brim full and my working level is about 60 lbs. My cooker would handle at least double that with no problem. I just do 60 lb batches and that is enough for me to handle. Typically, I'll do two or three batches at a time. I HAVE done as much as 500 lbs at a time but that is pretty much an "all day affair".

However, better safe than sorry. I can just about imagine the damage 60-100 lbs of molten lead would do to the surrounding environment plus your toes, etc. if your cooker collapsed.

Dale53

[MGySgt]

Dave - You planning on picking up that Dutch Oven with molten lead in it????

No - No - Go to the Dollar Store and get yourself a BIG soup ladel (SS ones are in expensive) and scoop out the molten lead with the ladel. You can always wrp the handle of the soup ladel with leather or cloth if your gloves are not thick enough.

Too easy for that pot to be just a tad warmer then you thunk and spill it all over - That my dear friend is WW abuse - you just spilled your cleaned WW in the dirt!

Drew

[BruceB]

DONT fill a 50 cal. ammo can with your ingots!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you are the strong man from the circus.
A 30 cal ammo can with WW will weigh 50 lbs + or - a few lbs.
Libbyman

Dang...I've been stashing my WW ingots in .50-caliber cans since about forever! They're heavy, alright...I seem to recall weighing one on a bathroom scale and coming up with 120 pounds or thereabouts.

Come to think of it, the way I work now, I NEVER have to move the cans when full. I take the ingots from the smelting table to the stack of .50 cans, and gradually fill each can in turn, right there where the cans live. They stay out in the weather without any problems. When casting boolits, I step about ten feet from the casting pot to the stack of ammo cans outside the shed, and grab as many ingots as I need. Works for me!

Yeah...I'd hate to have to tote a .50 can full of ingots up or down a set of basement stairs! I had a job in the mill at a copper mine long ago, and one of the chores was replenishing the big cascade mill with 6"-diameter grinding balls which weighed 32 pounds each. There were 19 steps from the floor to the place where the balls were dropped into the mill, and I had a method whereby I could carry four of them at once. Maybe that's why I still remember the number of steps, 45 years later!!!! Ah, to be young....immortal, immune and impregnable!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Dave - You planning on picking up that Dutch Oven with molten lead in it????

No - No - Go to the Dollar Store and get yourself a BIG soup ladel (SS ones are in expensive) and scoop out the molten lead with the ladel. You can always wrp the handle of the soup ladel with leather or cloth if your gloves are not thick enough.

Too easy for that pot to be just a tad warmer then you thunk and spill it all over - That my dear friend is WW abuse - you just spilled your cleaned WW in the dirt!

Drew

MGySgt,

I definately do not plan on picking it up, though I'm strong enough to. I have a stainess steel soup ladle and a rowell ladel I plan on using. I figure with both of them, I oughta be able to fill out those 3 lb. ingot molds at one go.

libbyman,

I don't plan on carrying the 50 cal ammo can either. I plan on having two or three of them on the bottom shelf of my heavy duty steel wheeled cart I'm going to roll outside to cast bullets with. I'll smelt until I fill them up, then stop. When I'm ready to cast bullets, they'll be right there ready to go on the bottom of the cart. just open them up and go to work.

Regards,

Dave

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

BruceB,

I'm figuring on duplicating your mold design in a four gang mold VVVV capped with flat steel on each end. I'm putting handles on each end using the same flat steel. Do the handles need to be very long (from the end) or will the width of the flat steel be long enough to get leverage? Will the molds be hot enough I might want to make them long to avoid the heat?

My plan is to fill them on a sturdy table build with steel legs and cheap (shipping crate) plywood. Then simply flip them over onto the table when they've set up.

Would you be kind enough to constructively criticse my plan and offer the voice of experience working with such a mold? I have bad knees, so would prefer to stand straight up if I can, but I can kneel down and work on the ground if I have to. My gut feel says to stand up where I can back the heck outta the way if something goes wrong and molten lead spills.

Thank you,

Dave

[Dale53]

I have an angle iron ingot mould. It does five lb weights. I also have several of the "regular" 1 lb ingots. I just do some of them in the large ingots and most of them in the 1 lb ingots. Then I have a choice when I alloy metal. In fact, I will soon add a Lee ingot mould that has a couple of 1/2 lb ingots amongst the 1 pounders. They are quite ueseful when alloying.

The only handles I have on the large mould is the angle iron closing the ends off. That is all that is necessary. I use a pair of "fireplace" or "welders" gloves. Works a treat, as the British say.

Dale53

[BD]

Dave , you might want to consider the weight and shape of the ingots you're planning to make if you're thinking of using them in a smallish bottom pour pot. A long skinny 5 pound ingot is going to have to go in on end and will cool the pot all the way down to the spout, (you're adding about 30% "cold" alloy to the mix). I use steel "large muffin" pans which make about a 2 lb ingot which is shaped just right to set in the pot on top. I keep two of the on the rim of my lyman bottom pour and add them one at a time, more or less continuously when I've got the rhythm going. I set them into the top of the pot and let them float down through the kitty litter before I stir them in. I stack four of them on the lip of the Master Caster and add them two at a time, (it's a 40 lb pot).
If you add too much alloy all at once you'll have to wait for the mix to come back up to temp before you can keep going. If you use smaller ingots you just tip them in as part of the routine without breaking stride.

As far as the temp for smelting WWs, I just melt them as low as possible so I can skim off anything that's not melting along with the crowd, and then when the pot is full, I hold them at 600 or so for about 20 minutes while stirring and fluxing. It takes some time for the crud to float up out of the alloy in a big pot. This way my alloy is good and clean and I need very little , if any, fluxing in the pot I'm pouring from. BD

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

BD,

"you might want to consider the weight and shape of the ingots you're planning to make if you're thinking of using them in a smallish bottom pour pot. A long skinny 5 pound ingot is going to have to go in on end and will cool the pot all the way down to the spout"

I did consider the weight and shape. Unless BruceB is telling a fib, the molds I'm making will produce 3 pound, not five pound ingots. I will be inserting these into a Lee 4-20 bottom pour when I go to cast. If I didn't misread Bruce's article on this website, these ingots should store nicely and be a nice shape to start up the pot with.

"(you're adding about 30% "cold" alloy to the mix)."

I plan on using a method very similar to BruceB and Goatlips use from their articles and websites for casting purposes, so I'll be using my Lee to pour and I'll use a second Dutch Oven I have on my turkey cooker to premelt my ingots and just pour from the one pot to the other to top off the casting pot.

"I use steel "large muffin" pans which make about a 2 lb ingot which is shaped just right to set in the pot on top."

Now I've seen three sizes of muffin pans. Some are tiny, like Rich has, some are about the medium size Mom made cornbread in and some are the large size the wife makes them banana nut muffins in. Are you talking about cornbread or banana nut muffins here? I'm interested because I also have about 300-400 pounds or better of pure lead I'm going to need a different shape mold for, so it'll be easy to differentiate what's what.


"If you add too much alloy all at once you'll have to wait for the mix to come back up to temp before you can keep going. If you use smaller ingots you just tip them in as part of the routine without breaking stride."

Even though I'll likely do the double boiler, I appreciate this information and will very likely use it as well along with some of those type ingots you mention.

"As far as the temp for smelting WWs, I just melt them as low as possible so I can skim off anything that's not melting along with the crowd, and then when the pot is full, I hold them at 600 or so for about 20 minutes while stirring and fluxing."

What I'm mostly concerned about is when I'm initially melting the wheelweights down, that I don't manage to get "too hot" and melt the non lead wheel weights.

"It takes some time for the crud to float up out of the alloy in a big pot. This way my alloy is good and clean and I need very little , if any, fluxing in the pot I'm pouring from."

Would everyone be kind enough to talk more on good fluxing technique? I have a small ton of candle wax from the wife I plan on using up as flux and I'd like to get the wheelweight ingots as clean as possible, since for the two calibers I'm using, I don't plan on alloying them with anything else.

Thank you fellas for your help in this.

Dave

[carpetman]

BruceB---Was your method of carrying 4---32 pounders at once juggling them? If so thats cheating you were really only carrying one at a time.