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Thread: Head scratcher: How does lube work?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Heat transfer theory, huh? I'm not sure I buy that one. Ignoring the kinetics of heat transfer for the moment, let's just look at the components of the system -- the bullet, the barrel and the lube. The mass (and heat capacity) of the barrel, as well as the mass (and heat capacity) of the bullet so significantly outweigh the miniscule mass (and heat capacity) of the lube that it's just not a horse race. If the heat transfer model were accurate, then the lube would have to soak up so much heat that it would likely vaporize at the muzzle. I've recovered too many fired cast bullets that stil had lube in their grooves to place much faith in this theory.

    The lead that gets deposited on a bore does not get there from melting. It gets there from ablation (also called gas-cutting).

    I agree with you that one theory alone does not explain how lube works, but that doesn't mean that lube doesn't help to seal the gases in a cast bullet load.

    Glen,

    Think about this.

    If you have lube left in the grooves, that means that all the forces you mentioned didn't do their job at pumping lube what so ever. So where was the seal? And where did the lube go?

    If lube were liquefied it would flow under those conditions. In the summer, more would be used up and the winter you would find more on the bullets. That's how my handgun stuff is. So why is that? Same load. Same rotational and acceleration forces. Just less heat to melt my lube is why. Rifles I never find any. I am RPMing those babies to death. For handgun bullets a general rule of thumb is that hard lubes are bad and soft lubes are good. Not all cases ............. but softer lubes would flow faster as they made more surface contact.

    And as far as lube vaporizing, how IS lube used up? Ever watch a guy pushing his limits using the same lube as you? Almost all lubes smoke just before the end. And you match the viscosity of the lube to the pressure and conditions it must endure. Otherwise one super hard rifle lube should work under all conditions and NEVER break seal or lead at handgun velocities. You know no one lube fills all conditions.

    The liquid theory supports seal, lubrication and changes in temperature or heat. Liquids boil off. The smaller the water drop the faster it heats and boils off. It can't boil off if it didn't absorb heat. That's where viscosity comes in. Racing cars have pistons and seals, but need heavier oil than passenger car engines not to break down huh? Just watch the Pennzoil commercial on TV. They talk about how their molecules recombine to counter shear forces and heat.

    Remember, lead has a poor heat transfer rate, that's why it flash leads. There are two types of leading. Gas cutting and flash leading. Don't think so? How can you possibly have gas cutting in the taper of a taylor throat when that bullet is constantly sizing and getting smaller? You can't. Impossible! Especially at handgun pressures. That is frictional or flash leading. Gas cutting occurs after that. As a bullet begins to pass lead deposits, it has to size down. Once passed that point, there is your seal loss occurs. That is where gas cutting begins. BUT the cause was the flash or frictional leading.

    But as far as mass goes with lead I believe it's insignificant because of the transfer rate problem. Only surface area and viscosity matters. And liquid lube will be covering that same area. If the viscosity matches the heat, it will endure, it will prevent friction, absorb the heat, and the seal will remain intact.

    It has to, that's your seal.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Glen's Avatar
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    BA -- I agree with you that the lube minimizes the frictional heat generated by the bullet by lubricating its passage. I just don't believe that frictional heating is sufficient to melt the lead.

    You asked where does the lube get pumped to? As was covered in the article, it gets pumped to the gap between the trailing edge of the land the surface of the engraved bullet (as well as any other microscopic defects in the bullet's surface as a result of engraving). These are very small, but with 20,000-30,000 psi pushing on the base of the bullets, these defects represent a significant leak for gases (the much more viscous lube can't leak out as quickly). If these defects are too large (e.g. from an undersized bullet), then the lube gets pumped (OK, blasted) out in front of the bullet, you have a naked bullet and you get severe leading as a result of the ablation from the gas leakage.

    The fact that there is lube left in the grooves does not mean that it wasn't pumped. Does the fact that there is gas in the tank of your car mean that the fuel pump doesn't work? Of course not, it just means that it hasn't had enough time to pump the reservoir dry yet. The same holds true for bullet lube and pumping mechanisms.

    You CAN have gas cutting in a taper bore -- again, the focus for how a bullet seals is not on bullet diameter, the focus is on the trailing edge of the land (the leading edge of the land is sealed by the bullet's inertia forcing the bullet metal onto the land, but the trailing edge has not such guarantee, and miniscule variations in the width of the land results in this contact face being the weak link in the seal).
    Glen

  3. #23
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    The function of boolit lube?

    Some time ago I was having some trouble with boolits sticking in the sizer die.
    I mean really stuck. I then pre lubed the boolits and got some relief. These were RCBS CAS 300 grain .410 dia. for the 40 65 Cimarron highwall.
    I have always pre lubed the bore before firing the first shot with bore butter.
    Bass has said the bore is similar to a sizing die.
    When using softer alloy or pure lead there is no tendacy for the boolits to stick in the size die. Now I wonder if those hard boolits tended to stick in the bore of the rifle also. How could I expect those hard boolits that stuck in the die to sail slickly through the bore of the rifle?
    I have recently quit making my boolits so hard and have had better results.
    I like fairly soft lube and almost any lube will work well at less than 1600 fps.
    I have recently acquired a vintage, 1921 saddle ring 1894 Winchester in 30 WCF and have had good results with softer alloy and softer lube up to 1800 fps. with the gas checked 31141.

    I hope this makes sense to you!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    BA -- I agree with you that the lube minimizes the frictional heat generated by the bullet by lubricating its passage. I just don't believe that frictional heating is sufficient to melt the lead.

    You CAN have gas cutting in a taper bore -- again, the focus for how a bullet seals is not on bullet diameter, the focus is on the trailing edge of the land (the leading edge of the land is sealed by the bullet's inertia forcing the bullet metal onto the land, but the trailing edge has not such guarantee, and miniscule variations in the width of the land results in this contact face being the weak link in the seal).

    Glen,

    OK. I see the issue. You do not acknowledge that flash leading or galling exists. You may not acknowledge that lead is a poor heat sink because the surface melts while the core is still cool. You have never worked with lead bearings have you? Ok. here goes.

    Definition: A condition whereby excessive friction between high spots results in localized welding with subsequent splitting and a further roughening of rubbing surfaces of one or both of two mating parts. From the link below.

    http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Galling.htm

    If it helps don't think of it as melting, just welding.

    Prove it to yourself.

    Do an experiment for me. Take a hollow base bullet or drill a hole in any bullet design. Fill this space with soft lube. Any lube. Size this bullet to the same size as the throat on any handgun. Shoot that bullet at any reasonable pressure into something you can recover it from. Guess what you will find? That the lube will still be there. Intact. Perfect. Now repeat the test and size to bore. Use a hard bullet at too low of a pressure so the bullet will take time to obturate. Fire that and recover that. The lube will be gone.

    What's my point? This will show you that the heat from the expanding gas only melts lube or cuts lead if it can pass under pressure. If hot gas can't melt bullet lube, how is it going to melt the trail edge of a land that is still sealed? Even if that land fails, there are more bands ahead of it maintaining the seal. Without a barrel imperfection, the only way they can break seal is to gall. So if you can't melt lube under a seal, how are you going to melt lead?

    Want to know how easy it is to melt lead? Buy a Lee push through sizer. On the instructions it used to show a lead bullet melting away under the lube with a torch. Now you will understand the limitation to LLA. It transfers heat too fast that the lead is still melted and deposited. So LLA is prone to frictional leading or galling which is why you must use harder bullets with LLA than other lubes because harder bullets resist friction better.

    Want another test? OK. let's eliminate gas all together. Take a bore of any gun and degrease it. Take an ACWW bullet and start it from the muzzle without lube. drive it through as fast as you can. Even at that rate without any gas to cut, you will have lead galled to the bore. Smeared, welded, .... galled. Right .... before .... your .... eyes. And zero gas to cut anything.

    Want more proof? Take a safe load of slow powder and fill the case with Cream of wheat. Place an unlubed ACWW bullet over it and shoot it. The cream of wheat will act as the seal. Norm Johnson does this all the time. If there is no such thing as galling, you won't have any lead. But I will bet that you do.

    Want another? OK. take a shotgun shell and cut the plastic cup off the wad. Place that back on the powder and fill the shot again. Shoot that in a dry, clean bore. That plastic cup is going to maintain a gas seal. Got any lead in the barrel?

    It happens! Once in the bore, a bore sized bullet must size over it to pass. THEN and only then CAN you get gas cutting!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Glen's Avatar
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    OK BA, I will try to take your points on one at a time:

    I never said anything about galling. I firmly believe that galling is an issue, I only stated that I don't beleive that frictional forces of the bullet's passing are enough to melt lead. (Yes, I have worked with lead bearings, that has virtually NOTHING to do with lead bullets melting as lead bearings are under contiuous friction for extended periods of time, while bullets only experience them for 1-2 milliseconds).

    OK, concerning your experiment with a HB bullet filled with lube -- have you ACTUALLY done this experiment in a revolver? When that HB filled with lube blows past the cylinder gap, the lube is going to get blown out the gap, whether the bullet is soft or hard. Do it in a sealed breech (e.b. semi-auto), and the lube has nowhere to go and will stay in the bullet. This experiment has nothing to do with the issues I brought up earlier.

    But I will follow your lead here --if hot gas can't melt bullet lube (with a melting point of maybe 120 degrees F) how is it going to melt some lead alloy (melting point of 500+ degrees F). The Laws of Thermodynamics don't take vacations.

    I never said anything about melting the trailing edge of the land, you did. I simply said that the escaping gases would ABLATE the lead off of the bullet as they blew past through the leak. Melting is a different phenomenon.

    "Without a barrel imperfection..." -- that is the key to my point, barrels, as good as they are, are not perfect when viewed at the molecular level (which is the level we have to look at when we talk about keeping all of the gas molecules BEHIND the bullet). Even defects as small as .0001" (which is VERY good machine work) leaves enough room for 50,000 gas molecules to blitz on through, unimpeded.

    LLA isn't lube, it's a varnish. Nuff said.

    As for your next "experiment" -- I have fireformed wildcat cases with cast bullets using unlubed bullets at 1600-1800 fps with no leading whatsoever (accuracy was aweful, but there was no leading). Gosh, I guess "frictional melting" must have taken a holiday, right?

    Your last two experiments exemplify exactly what I'm talking about -- a good gas seal helps to prevent leading. As for your closing comment, I haven't deciphered that one yet to figure out what you're trying to say....
    Glen

  6. #26
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    ab·late: To remove by erosion, melting, evaporation, or vaporization. From this definition, it does not matter how the edges actually get blown away down the barrel. We just know it does when the boolit is just not right for the circumstances. ... felix
    felix

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    I kinda like Felix's approach here. It does happen.

    Gas cutting does happen. It probably doesn't have anything to do with lube, except possibly if the lube can seal the interface between a bullet, and bore. Otherwise gas cutting progresses apace.

    Friction does happen. Contrary to what has been said this has to be EXTREME! It should produce muy mucho calor, y muy pronto. Avoiding this happening is nothing short of a miracle. Remember that heat from friction increases with (at least) three factors- pressure of contact, drag of surfaces, and velocity. This in the case of a boolit is nothing to sniff at. If this heat doesn't transfer away due to lead not carrying heat well, then the only other things that can happen are either for the surface of the lead to melt, or for something like lube to absorb the heat (and possibly vaporize). I'm of the opinion that the reason that copper plated boolits loose their plating at higher velocities is that copper conducts heat well and melts at a higher temp than lead, and therefore it takes the heat of the friction to the lead core. The lead melts, and the boolit loses its plating.

    Galling isn't somehow a non phenomenon where lead, and steel mix. And it does invlove heat. It is the heat created at even almost zero velocity when the pressure goes through the roof. It occurs at the microscopic level, and welds or solders first two (one steel, one lead) atoms, then four atoms, and so on. Have you ever wondered how a snow covered road gets slick and icy? It's the pressure from the tires melting the snow so it can re-freeze as ice. Remember, where the tire meets the road it isn't moving. The same thing will happen where lead, and steel meet with no lubrication, and lead will be melted and applied to the steel (works really good with steel to steel too, - lots of pressure , not much velocity). More velocity? Then it works even better.

    It's obvious that lubes can (and most probly DO) do any of the things laid out previously in this thread. They lubricate, they therefore reduce friction and heat and can stop galling if they're a good enough lubricant. They undoubtedly do some varying amount of sealing in the boolit bore interface, and there's nothing that can or would keep them from evaporating and cooling the surface of the lead. All that is needed is for the lube to be there, and for something to be hot.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Whitespider's Avatar
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    Hmmmmmmmmmmm..........
    I'm still thinkin' FM Theory!

  9. #29
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    Smile It doesn't matter to me

    I was in the Two Way Radio business for over 35 years and explained the FM (Freaking Magic) theory many a time to our customers.

    I shoot many Bear Creek Bullets with and without lube grooves up to 1800 fps with no leading that are molly coated and sealed with a proprietary covering of Teflon or paste wax (maybe both?).

    The most significant reduction of leading problems and improvement in accuracy for me was the discovery that the largest bullet that will fit in the chamber usually works best, softer lead is better than hard lead at lower velocities, and smooth bores without constrictions aren’t fussy about lube or BHN.

    I don’t really care if the bullet is lubed with molly, paste wax, Teflon, Crisco, Pam cooking spray, hard, soft, or no lube and I’m quite happy to call it “Freaking Magic” or anything else.

    As long as it works I’m not going to loose any sleep thinking about it.

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  10. #30
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    Ken Mollohan did a lot of work and wrote a lot about bullet lubrication in the book. See http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/, look in "FILES" for the book, then "5.0 Bullet Lubrication".
    joe brennan

  11. #31
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    Lla

    Quote Originally Posted by chevyiron420 View Post
    i have always kinda thought that the first boolit gets down a cold barrel with some luck and leaves some lube behind it, then each boolit after that gets the lube from the one before it. probably wrong, i dont know, but i dont get the LLA at all. i have 200 boolits for my 44 lubed up with LLA drieng now and have no confidence in them at all. im going to tumble them a second time today for good measure.-phil
    Hi again Phil,

    Give those LLA boolits a try with that double coat of lube and if they smoke too much and you have no leading, try a little less lube. I shoot that stuff in a .444 Marlin up to 2100 FPS+ and in .30-30 at 2300+ and don't get leading. They say, too much lube can be bad for accuracy but don't know about that. You might want to put a little LLA on a cleaning rag and run it down thru your barrel before you start shooting. Wipe it out clean (some will still be there) and you will have a pre-lube condition. Just like pre-lubing engine parts before you fire one up after rebuild.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    As for your next "experiment" -- I have fireformed wildcat cases with cast bullets using unlubed bullets at 1600-1800 fps with no leading whatsoever (accuracy was aweful, but there was no leading). Gosh, I guess "frictional melting" must have taken a holiday, right?

    Your last two experiments exemplify exactly what I'm talking about -- a good gas seal helps to prevent leading. As for your closing comment, I haven't deciphered that one yet to figure out what you're trying to say....

    Glen,

    I made the mistake of equating galling with melting. I do a lot of welding and soldering and equate heat as part of the equation. My error. The galling process is temperature related as I will use your example above later.

    And yes. I recovered many of my bullets that had the lube still in the base of the bullet from the sizing process. This was entirely by ignorance. When I started casting back in the 60s, I used everything to include bullets with air holes in the bases that filled with lube from the sizer. If it was capable of going bang, it went down range.

    I found out then that if lube was enclosed, heat and pressure and gases had no effect on it unless gases were permitted to escape, Then I assume that it melts and vaporizes or does something. I don't know how you would prove what happens and it wasn't really relevant to solving my problem.

    That technique can be a quick problem solving tool. If I am working with a gun I am unfamiliar with it can eliminate gas .... escapes as a reason for leading if I can't diagnose the reason by some logic. I have had leading caused from blowing off the lube before it produced any visible signs of cutting on the bullet. The check was a quick down and dirty.

    I use a lot of PSB. But from my results, solid filler is not a sealer unless so designed for the purpose like a shotgun wad. Solid filler transfers the obturation force from the base of the bullet to a material that will not lead. That's all as temperature will prove below.

    I have shot unlubed bullets also. I did it with no lube using filler to protect the base, although not to fire form brass. And friction does come into play in loads without lube. Prove it to yourself. Take that same load that you fire formed with. Raise and lower temperature, and see if you don't move into the gall zone and lead. The softer the lead, the narrower the temperature change range. But the cold part with no lube is the puzzler. SO filler "seal" doesn't cover it either.

    So I find it pays to consider temperature right up there with seal and lubrication benefits because it alters both of those factors. Of coarse the galling leaves lead deposits that attract more lead and eventually require passing bullets to size to get around it if the GC can't keep it at bay. When the bullet isn't hard enough to disperse it and can no longer spring back in passing or the pressure isn't high enough to obturate the base again to maintain the seal, gas cutting ensures.

  13. #33
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    I think we left out one significant reason that may also tie into the equation.....
    Lube vaporizing and cooling the powder flame front.

    Harold Vaughn published results about this in his "Rifle Accuracy Facts" book in the small blurb about Moly Coated bullets. Turns out that commercial moly bullet coating uses Moly mixed with beeswax -- to stick it on. He found that the beeswax vaporizing created a cooler flame front -- causing the lower initial velocities found when using Moly bullets with the same load as non-coated bullets.

    What if one lube property is to cool the flame front a little along with all those other things.

    As many have stated here, you can swage a grease grooved lead boolit into pretty much any shape you want -- so long as you fill the lube grooves you want filled when it is done. The unlubed grooves bump up to diameter, while the lubed grooves hold strong. This is enough pressure to swage a round nose into a SWC nose -- and no leading in the swage die if you use just a teeny bit of swage lube (lanolin + mineral spirits.)

    Now combine everything we have mentioned: Flame front cooling + Vaporized wax + Bullet fit to barrel + Bullet base strength against obduration + Gritty powder and primer residue on barrel surface + actual lube sealing ability + actual lube lubricating ability -- we have a whole bunch of factors that create or reduce: Friction, Flame Temp, and Pressure.

    So, we have a whole bunch of factors -- and some really smart people on the board. If we can figure out a good way to repeatably test factors against eachother, we can do actual experiments to quantify the strength of the factors against the effects.

    Brainstorming Effects:
    Velocity
    "Leading" -- but how would we "measure" leading?
    Group size (may be a problem because of other things going on)

    Brainstorming Factors:
    Bullet diameter
    Lube flashpoint
    Lube viscosity
    Fillers/Cards/Wads under the bullet
    Load pressure/powder charge

    Please chip in with some more. I would like to get an experiment going to help myself understand this mess.

    Thanks

    John

  14. #34
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    Good stuff.

    I can only add one speculative comment. Friction and heat both add to temperature.

    A 3000 PSI hydraulic system heats up quickly. Rubbing two cats together does too.

    What's 13,000 or 30,000 PSI do to the other factors if even for a fraction of a second. Probably only affects the surface molecules during the time in the barrel but I haven't seen it accounted for in the discussion. Perhaps it's not significant?

  15. #35
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    I keep thinking about this and I want to go back to what a smart man for cast, named George Marshall once wrote that the best accuracy with cast came just before leading began. That sounds to me like he was saying that you needed balance in a bore at the velocity and pressure you were running. In a word, balance.

    The problem with defining things can be in terminology. In cast bullets we have enough stuff already that is confusing. I incorrectly said melting for galling because in my mind that's how welding or soldering is done. We often talk of steel molds that are really iron. Bore and groove are another set that is sloppily used. Same with cylinders in a handgun when we really mean chambers. We get sloppy and in order to be precise, you have to correct. I think seal is one more of those terms.

    How I look at bullet lube is that I use it to avoid that "perfect seal". A perfect seal is one which will not pass any gas at all which is the definition of a totally galled or stuck bullet. Lube is used to prevent that. So talking about seals can be confusing for some folks since how do you define a good seal as opposed to a bad seal? Temperature keeps good /bad in a constant state of flux .

    I say that you need a film of lube that will prevent galling at the pressure and temperature range of interest under the conditions which you are using it. That it in a nut shell for me.

    The seal that happens is a natural event that I am willing to accept happens because my bullet moves forward and out. At least it has so far. Even a bullet, thought to be without lube, has carbon in the bore that it uses to prevent galling or that "seal". And as long as you remain in balance, it will work. But that range of operation would be too limiting for the vast majority of us, so we use lube.

    That was a simple statement for a remarkably complex issue that involves everything from fillers to bore condition. And since we can't define those as to good or bad, how do you define something that ties them all together to allow successful use of something prone to locking up? Good luck.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master S.R.Custom's Avatar
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    Reading through all these posts, I have to admit that my eyes glazed over about halfway through. While all the theories sound plausible on some level, no one really knows for sure, because a bullet speeding down the bore is not something we can stand there and watch in slow motion. When faced with an analytical problem where empirical evidence is nil, I tend to look for the simple explanation...

    When you solder two pieces of metal together, say, an electronic component to a circuit board, you apply a substance known as "flux" to the components to aid in the bonding and adhesion of the metals. I think of bullet lube as the "anti-flux" to the bullet/bore bonding problem, because that's essentially what lead fouling is-- the bullet trying to bond to the bore.

    When a bullet is forced down the bore with 20K psi of pressure behind it, the propellant gasses are trying to cut and rush past the bullet along the sides. When these gasses pass past the lube groove, they strip some lube away, and under that kind of heat and pressure, the lube being stripped away is most assuredly in a gaseous form. It's presence, co-mingled with the lead that's likewise being stripped from the side of the bullet, presents a fouling situation as far as the bullet is concerned, and keeps the lead from adhering to the metal of the bore. Hence the term "anti-flux."

    I came to this conclusion a few years ago, and my epiphany resulted in a "what if" moment... If the protective quality of bullet lube is a result of its anti-fluxing properties, what would happen if I applied said lube to the bore of the weapon as well as the bullet? So I ran a wet patch of a mixture of mineral spirits and Lee Liquid Alox down the tube of a favorite .45 of mine when I cleaned it, and put it away, allowing the LLA to dry in the bore. What happened the next time I shot the .45 simply amazed me...

    This particular .45, when shot with my most accurate load, would show appreciable amounts of lead fouling in about 100-150 rounds. With my "Bore Prime" applied (I've since come up with the ideal ration of 2 parts mineral spirits and one part LLA), fouling was non-existent until I'd run about 500 rounds down the pipe. And even then, whatever fouling that occured was easily stripped out with 2 or 3 passes of a tight fitting, dry bronze brush; the lead fouling came out in pronounced lead strips, as it had totally failed to bond to the bore in any meaningful way.

    There is a "seasoning" process at work here as well. Any gun of mine that sees only lead bullets, and is cleaned thoroughly and treated with Bore Prime at clean-up, develops what I call a burnishing of the bore; the interval at which fouling occurs seems to get longer each time, requiring only a few passes of a dry brush to bring about a shiny clean bore until the point it rarely fouls at all. Sorta like that favorite .22 you never have to clean...

    Is Bore Prime the magic elixir that ends lead fouling? Of course not. If you push a 240 gr. PB down the bore of a .44 Magnum with 26.0 grs of 296, you're going to have a mess regardless of what you do. And shooting jacketed bullets through a dedicated lead bullet gun makes for a real mess too, until you get all the copper out again. But Bore Prime does help quite a bit. Try it and see...

  17. #37
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    Talking Great Stuff

    HI,
    I just had a chance to read this. It covers the subject of lube theory better than anything I have ever read before!
    One point, some liquids can be commpressed ( but not at the pressure ranges we are talking about).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMag View Post
    Reading through all these posts, I have to admit that my eyes glazed over about halfway through. While all the theories sound plausible on some level, no one really knows for sure, because a bullet speeding down the bore is not something we can stand there and watch in slow motion. When faced with an analytical problem where empirical evidence is nil, I tend to look for the simple explanation...

    When you solder two pieces of metal together, say, an electronic component to a circuit board, you apply a substance known as "flux" to the components to aid in the bonding and adhesion of the metals. I think of bullet lube as the "anti-flux" to the bullet/bore bonding problem, because that's essentially what lead fouling is-- the bullet trying to bond to the bore.

    When a bullet is forced down the bore with 20K psi of pressure behind it, the propellant gasses are trying to cut and rush past the bullet along the sides. When these gasses pass past the lube groove, they strip some lube away, and under that kind of heat and pressure, the lube being stripped away is most assuredly in a gaseous form. It's presence, co-mingled with the lead that's likewise being stripped from the side of the bullet, presents a fouling situation as far as the bullet is concerned, and keeps the lead from adhering to the metal of the bore. Hence the term "anti-flux."

    I came to this conclusion a few years ago, and my epiphany resulted in a "what if" moment... If the protective quality of bullet lube is a result of its anti-fluxing properties, what would happen if I applied said lube to the bore of the weapon as well as the bullet? So I ran a wet patch of a mixture of mineral spirits and Lee Liquid Alox down the tube of a favorite .45 of mine when I cleaned it, and put it away, allowing the LLA to dry in the bore. What happened the next time I shot the .45 simply amazed me...

    This particular .45, when shot with my most accurate load, would show appreciable amounts of lead fouling in about 100-150 rounds. With my "Bore Prime" applied (I've since come up with the ideal ration of 2 parts mineral spirits and one part LLA), fouling was non-existent until I'd run about 500 rounds down the pipe. And even then, whatever fouling that occured was easily stripped out with 2 or 3 passes of a tight fitting, dry bronze brush; the lead fouling came out in pronounced lead strips, as it had totally failed to bond to the bore in any meaningful way.

    There is a "seasoning" process at work here as well. Any gun of mine that sees only lead bullets, and is cleaned thoroughly and treated with Bore Prime at clean-up, develops what I call a burnishing of the bore; the interval at which fouling occurs seems to get longer each time, requiring only a few passes of a dry brush to bring about a shiny clean bore until the point it rarely fouls at all. Sorta like that favorite .22 you never have to clean...

    Is Bore Prime the magic elixir that ends lead fouling? Of course not. If you push a 240 gr. PB down the bore of a .44 Magnum with 26.0 grs of 296, you're going to have a mess regardless of what you do. And shooting jacketed bullets through a dedicated lead bullet gun makes for a real mess too, until you get all the copper out again. But Bore Prime does help quite a bit. Try it and see...
    I would like to second the anti-fluxing argument. It's true we can't see what happens to a bullet that is traveling down the bore. But, using high speed photography, we can see what they look like when the are born into this world. I was looking through Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and they have some high speed photos of bullets fired from muzzle loaders. These are bullets that are traveling much slower then smokeless rounds. You can clearly see how the hot gases have eroded the base of some of the bullets. So it does get hot enough to melt the lead of the bullet.

    I used to shoot IPSC with a 38 super. I bought my bullets from a guy at the range that had a secret "lube." I talked to him about it one day and he told me that the lube isn't really lubing anything. What it does is stop the melted lead of the bullet from soldering to the bore. His bullets had a hard black coating all over them. It looked allmost like a powder coat. I would push these pills to 1450 fps with zero leading. And judging from the blast out of the comp it was plenty hot inside the barrel to melt the lead. My 38 super wouldn't even run with store bought ammo. Just to get it to cycle you have to use "Hot" loads.

    But what about paper patched and teflon taped bullets? I think the same thing applies. It is just that the paper or tape is physically preventing the lead from touching the barrel. This prevents it from soldering. So why doesn't the paper burn away if it's so hot? The paper is in direct contact with the barrel and the steel in the barrel is acting as a heat sink so the paper never reaches it flash point.

    Well this is my opinion and that with a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

  19. #39
    Banned








    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    I puts it on my bullets and shoots dem!

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2022
    Location
    Godzone country ,New Zealand
    Posts
    529
    so..having read right through this thread...and got a headache ....what if any effect would dipping the boolit itself in ,say,vasoline or soft mutton fat/frypan grease,before chambering in rifle have??? would it be positive effect by sliding down into junction of boolit and barrel and making it slipperier??? of do you then risk the dreaded bulge the barrel???that shooting with oil or water in barrel is said to cause???

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check