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Thread: A different burn rate chart...

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Lightbulb A different burn rate chart...

    All that I've seen elsewhere ar single column linear, even if it overlaps to the next columnm its a linear list..

    This one is a bit different. This is by powder maker with relative rates in an excel spreadsheet. To me this gives a much clearer picture of relative burn rates.

    I've cut and pasted my own copy at home (and deleted coumns for powder I'll likely never use (French and Swiss?? I think), roated it in a landscape format, changed font sizes .... yada yada yada. Very user friendly. I've used their version for the past 10 years or so.

    http://gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html

    After looking it over (and the sponsoring group at its home website), feel free to share your opinions.

  2. #2
    Boolit Man



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    I like that much better than the linear charts. It makes it clearer as to which powders are most similar in burn rate.
    Thanks for the link!
    Ron

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
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    I've been using such a chart for years. Even developed one of my own about a decade ago.

    I strongly claim that those "1 to xxx" charts are completely useless. This "spreadsheet format" is the ONLY logical and useful depiction of relative burn rates. And even it can't be relied upon to extrapolate loads because actual burn rate changes with cartridge shape, case volume and other factors.

  4. #4
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    Bullshop's Avatar
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    I have been using the older type chart the kind available in most loading manuals for many years and dont realy understand how anyone can say they are usless. I find great usefullness in them.
    I looked at this one and right off I see something I dont agree with. When looking at any new chart I always compair something I know. I am looking at Bullseye and compairing to WST and the chart shows WST as being faster than Bullseye. The other charts I use show Bullseye being faster.
    Am I reading this wrong? Also what are the numbers at the bottom with the manufacturer names?

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Great chart....thanks for sharing
    It's all chicken, even the beak!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master high standard 40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    I have been using the older type chart the kind available in most loading manuals for many years and dont realy understand how anyone can say they are usless. I find great usefullness in them.
    I looked at this one and right off I see something I dont agree with. When looking at any new chart I always compair something I know. I am looking at Bullseye and compairing to WST and the chart shows WST as being faster than Bullseye. The other charts I use show Bullseye being faster.
    Am I reading this wrong? Also what are the numbers at the bottom with the manufacturer names?
    I saw a couple of issues also. H110 and 296 are exactly the same powder but are on two different lines. Same with H414 and 760.
    There may be others but I have not checked it with a lot of scrutiny. That being said, I see this table as being very useful and I have saved it to an Excel spread sheet on my computer.

    Thanks to the OP for posting this........

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    I have been using the older type chart the kind available in most loading manuals for many years and dont realy understand how anyone can say they are usless. I find great usefullness in them.
    I looked at this one and right off I see something I dont agree with. When looking at any new chart I always compair something I know. I am looking at Bullseye and compairing to WST and the chart shows WST as being faster than Bullseye. The other charts I use show Bullseye being faster.
    Am I reading this wrong? Also what are the numbers at the bottom with the manufacturer names?
    At a quick glance I too see several that I don't agree with position, a couple that are almost unbelievable

    H110-#15 W296 #17 same powder
    HS6-9 W540-11 same powder
    HS7-11 W571-13 same powder
    H450- IMR4350 same relative speed?
    retumbo- ramshot magnum same relative speed?

    and then there is #39 H870 and W785 WOW now I know why people were telling someone 785 was as slow as H870, not.

    The numbers at bottom are number of powders shown for ea company
    Charter Member #148

  8. #8
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Email them and contribute rather than just complain. In some cases, it appears it's a matter of not enough space to put a powder in without rearranging the whole table. Still, it gives one a better idea of what's approximately equal to what vs the staight list format.

    Powders within three lines of one another are similar in relative quickness but cannot be directly substituted without due regard for safe reloading procedures.=In the neighborhood of.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by madsenshooter;1960110[COLOR="#FF0000"
    ]Email them and contribute rather than just complain[/COLOR]. In some cases, it appears it's a matter of not enough space to put a powder in without rearranging the whole table. Still, it gives one a better idea of what's approximately equal to what vs the staight list format.

    Powders within three lines of one another are similar in relative quickness but cannot be directly substituted without due regard for safe reloading procedures.=In the neighborhood of.
    Didn't know I was complaing, just stating what I observed, cheeeeeeeese!
    Charter Member #148

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by madsenshooter View Post

    Powders within three lines of one another are similar in relative quickness but cannot be directly substituted without due regard for safe reloading procedures.=In the neighborhood of.
    Yes, I think that's a good explanation as these burn rate data charts are generated using closed chamber thermodynamic equipment- not using variable expansion ratio tests as would happen when loaded in a firearm propelling a projectile. But they are useful. I too don't like the linear charts and much prefer this type.

    The GS chart is good as is the Vihtavuori linked here: http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloadin...echart2011.pdf
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Anyone that took offensive to my preference for thsi chart over a 'linear' chart, well perhaps it was my choice of words.
    I do find this format more useful as a GUIDE to which propellants to use. Common sense does apply ... start carefully. I have ON MY PERSONAL COPY have added a column for surplus powder, to see where they 'fit in' with the commercial ones. Its working for me.

    Of course there will always be different points of view ... hey we're all different.
    The original website does say, 'please share' your experience and opinions. Just as you have all done here.

    Thanks
    Last edited by sojerguy; 12-16-2012 at 06:24 PM. Reason: miss-spelling

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
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    No burn rate chart is perfect - or perfectly accurate. Nothing says you can't download a chart and make corrections as you see fit, such as putting known identical powders on the same line (i.e. H414 and W760). You probably ought not move things around based on opinion rather than substantiated facts, but as long as you don't use ANY burn rate chart for load data extrapolation, you can construct it any way you like.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    I have been using the older type chart the kind available in most loading manuals for many years and dont realy understand how anyone can say they are usless. I find great usefullness in them....
    I'm with Bullshop on this as well. I prefer a simple vertical list.

    What I would worry about is that this type of chart insinuates that the powders on a same line would have the same characteristics...take line 15...AA4100, 2400, H110 Ball (and they put 296 on line 17 ? ). IMHO, These three powders each need an asteric by them with exclaimations of there use.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Gee, guys. All burn rate charts are approximations! This is just a handy reference guide.
    Eleutheromaniac

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    JonB. Send them an email. They might update it, or send you back some info that would convince you they're right.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I agree that burn rate charts are just the approximate order of speed based on closed bomb tests. I also have used them to find a "class" of powder and have used that to calculate a starting load when none was at my disposal, never failed me yet. I am very careful and use all my practical klnowledge to find these starting loads, and knowing that W785 is 4831 speed and seeing it on same line as H870 gives me pause. I'll stick with one of my linear charts that has approximately 22 powders between 785 ad 870. So as with some of the others here was stating what I saw as a defect, not complaining, jusyt trying to give a little insight. Thanks for posting this chart.
    Charter Member #148

  17. #17
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    One thing I've noticed on burn rate charts is there seems to be no indication of the diference between powders? Powder listed in the number 20 slot is faster than the 19th spot, but how much faster? There would have to be a standard for measuring (BTU?), so how many BTUs is Universal quicker/faster burnig than Unique?
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    No such all inclusive, quantitative chart exists because of the progressive nature of smokeless powder and the variables of application. A burning powder under variable resistance and changing expansion ratio (like when a cartridge is fired and the bullet moves down a barrel) precludes the formulation of such a chart. That's why reloading manuals are crammed full of individual test data. Yet none of them can predict 100% accurate results in an individual load/cartridge/gun.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy



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    Burn rate charts are just informational. Powders vary from lot to lot, and may loose potency over time depending on storage conditions. This is why powder manufacturers say to reduce by 10% from starting charges when using a new lot of powder. Its not an exact science. What burns fine for me in my rifle may be to hot for yours. Be safe and as always reference multiple credable sources when reloading!
    Just my 2cents.

    Thanks for the chart OP its been added to my references on powders.
    Mario
    dagunnut

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    There would have to be a standard for measuring (BTU?), so how many BTUs is Universal quicker/faster burnig than Unique?
    Would be nice if it worked that way but BTUs and burn rate within the context of progressive burning in a cartridge are two completely different things. The total potential BTUs in chemical energy within smokeless powders of similar chemical makeup are similar. Example: the BTUs in 5 grains of really fast powder can be very close to the same as the BTUs in 5 grains of really slow powder if both powder types are within the same chemical family.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check