ww verses 50/50

[camaro1st]

Has anyone noticed a different in accuracy between ww and ww/lead mix? I have lost some accuracy in my rifle and that is the only reason i can think of. I still have some that is ww but i used up the last of my gc's on the 50/50. the boolit is 223 in my ar.

[44man]

I do in my revolvers. Many times 3 shots in a ragged hole but always 2 fliers at 50 yards.
I get no leading with 50-50 at all and can't explain fliers unless just some boolit skid, why it does not lead the bore with skid is what I can't explain. Maybe it is slump.

[Shuz]

For many years now I have strived to make Saeco 7 (Bhn 11) alloy for my .44 mag handguns. I shoot mainly plain based boolits. Accuracy has been superb,with 2400 and WC 820, but when I use the faster powders such as Green Dot and Unique, I get very minor leading in the bbl. This leading cleans up nicely with no more than 5 rounds of gas checked boolits and 18g of 2400. Recently I've discovered that Saeco 4 (Bhn 7) alloy does not lead my bbls using the faster powders, so I've been striving lately to achieve this Saeco 4 hardness, by mixing 50% clip on ww's with 50% pure lead.

[Harter66]

I've shot a couple of 30cals w/the 50/50 the end result was reaching an accuracy peak that was caused probably by slumping. So I backed the load down and called it good. Experiments pending w/25/75 1/20-WW. My goal is to keep expansion for a spire pointed boolit and 3"/100yd groups.

[camaro1st]

44man is your accuracy better with the 50/50 than with the straight ww? i had fair accuracy and grouping with ww's and cast a bunch with 50/50 thinking bound to be better and didn't have much difference at first. Went from 1" groups to 3-4" and not real for sure when the switch happened. A little curious now.

[Shiloh]

I do in my revolvers. Many times 3 shots in a ragged hole but always 2 fliers at 50 yards.
I get no leading with 50-50 at all and can't explain fliers unless just some boolit skid, why it does not lead the bore with skid is what I can't explain. Maybe it is slump.

50/50 is about as hard as I go with pistol boolits. At 25 yards firing LEE 125 gr RF at 840 fps, 60 rounds made a ragged hole about 1 1/2 inch
diameter, with scattered shots radiating out. I was more than pleased with the group. This was from sandbags.

Rifle boolits are a bit harder and are run around 1750 to just under 1800. I have run these over 2100 with no leading.
I would think that if yur boolits and skidding or sliding along the rifling, there would be tell-tale evidence of leading.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

welllll the 223 is a bit different.
are you weight sorting them?
are you pushing them in a 1-7,8,9 twist?
how fast?

i went from straight lino to it cut 50-50 with pure and more tin added this decreased group size for me.
i may try softening the alloy up some more and see what happens,but i don't see running out of the 400 lbs of alloy i have set aside for this and one other boolit any time soon.

[camaro1st]

run im sorting by .5 gr.. running a 1-9 twist. 23gr of imr4064. running 2482 avg with gcs. i've went from 21-25grs and 23 seemed to be the best. i went to 50/50 from straight ww to try and stretch out the ww's. from what i've read i thought the 50/50 mix would help my groups but, questioning that now. the boolits are leaving a nice hole in the paper (no keyhole).

[Larry Gibson]

50/50 is too soft for many applications (heavier handgun loads or HV rifle loads) unless the bullets are QWQ'd or HT'd. Better ternary alloy is to add 2% tin the the COWWs you have and let them AC 7-10 days for a BHN and excelent mallebilty at 14 - 17 (most often 16 - 17). You can also WQ the bullets and get a BHN of 22-24 after 48 hours.

Larry Gibson

[camaro1st]

i do wQ sorry forgot to mention that

[44man]

44man is your accuracy better with the 50/50 than with the straight ww? i had fair accuracy and grouping with ww's and cast a bunch with 50/50 thinking bound to be better and didn't have much difference at first. Went from 1" groups to 3-4" and not real for sure when the switch happened. A little curious now.

No but it depends on caliber and powders. All of my revolvers shoot best with WD, WW metal. The problem is some like the 45-70 BFR and just maybe the .500 JRH do not kill fast and need a softer boolit or nose. I got a little crazy with my first two deer this year shot with the .500. I found them, they did not go far but there was no blood trail from either. The .44 and .475 has blood everywhere. The 45-70 is too fast with hard and the heavy JRH boolit might also go through too fast. It showed less internal damage then the .475. Large exit hole but not enough inside. I need to do something but 50-50 would be too soft for both.
I start to get larger groups with air cooled WW's and 50-50 has too many fliers. Not so bad they would miss deer of course but it shortens distance. My last JRH shot was 120 yards with a perfect hit.
I want to balance accuracy with boolit affect. The JRH has done 1/2" at 100 yards and I hate to lose that. I fear making the nose too soft because of slump. The nose must also steer the cylinder and nose through the forcing cone.
I am at a loss too, it is not easy.
I never shoot 25 yards with hunting loads, starting at 50 and going to 100. Very few deer are 25 or less in gun season and are moving.
Shiloh is OK at his velocity, he really needs expansion but he also loses penetration if he hunts.
Runfiverun has always shown much knowledge and his twist rate questions are right on again. You need to change alloy and hardening for twist rates.
Cast might be the hardest thing to balance ever. If all you shoot is target your job is easy, just go harder.

[camaro1st]

Ok thanks guys I guess wd ww's it is. Thanks for the replys, your knowledge and time

[popper]

Hodgdon data - 63 GR. SIE SP,IMR 4064, 22.5,2765 ;24.8C, 3028 so you are close to top for jacketed? I agree with the HT WW or equal. For a 1:9 that is a lot of force on the grooves. Your fps seems a little low.

[camaro1st]

Popper The high of 10 shot was 2538 and low was 2387. Iirc The data I have showed 55gr jacket at bottom 24.? And top 26.someting. I've gone as low as 21 and still cycle and up to 25. No signs of over pressure and No leadind with any. I will have to find a fired boolit and see about posting it.

[popper]

Didn't know what CB you were using so I guessed and assumed an AR. My comment was basically you have a full case of powder and not getting near jacketed speed. May be due to short bbl and twist. My 308 AR has 1:10, I use ~ HT WW with min. load for 165, no leading and S-I-L got dime groups @ 40 last week, off-hand. I don't get near the fps your are at. Isn't 25 gr a compressed load? Compare recovered CB groove width for the WW and 50/50. You may need some shot or hardball to save your WW stash.

[camaro1st]

The barrel is 16" bought it before I learned the wonderful world of casting. 25 was compressed. I will have to read up on hardball.

[camaro1st]

Ok a little help with hardball? Where can I get it?

[Mal Paso]

Hardball? Rotometals Click on Banner at top of page.

[runfiverun]

the ww's and tin should be fine.
weight sort into smaller groups like a batch of .4 and .5 together should be okay.
i sort into exact weight groups. and shoot them that way.
hardball and 2% more tin would duplicate what i use as far as alloy.
it is however not as high a bhn as water dropped ww's.
the extra tin in the ww's will help mitigate any antimonial wash in the bbl.
in my stag 9 twist 20" bbl i use 4895 and am pushing along in the 2700 fps range, the groups are in the 1-1/2" range at 100 meters.
i wanted to play with things a little more,but little girl called it good nuff saying that's as good as most jaxketed rounds do.
in my 12 twist bolt gun the groups are much smaller.
the loads were worked for this rifle and just happened to work pretty well in the AR.
i just got a new stag 6-H with a 24" 1-8 twist bbl.
so i'll have to do some more measuring and start over [maybe]

[camaro1st]

So I messed up thinking the 50/50 would do better. So back to ww's I go then. Then the 50/50 mix is mostly good in my pistols and slower moving rifles? Or is it just try and see?