High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

[xacex]

From what I have read, any As greater than 0.25% by mass (weight) is wasted. By weight, your alloy is similar to what I normally use in the 308W for full house loads. I just shoot paper but am thinking of a way to do the nose softening (AC) trick with boiling water. I think the torch method would destroy the PC.

A thought, quickly dipping the tip in the lead pot a few times may do it without damaging the PC if it does not stick to the outside.

[gpidaho]

I was gifted 12lbs. of copper hard babbit. I've been mixing this into my usual alloy. I can't get this to work in a bottom pour pot as the alloy freezes in the spout, but with ladle casting it makes a very pretty and tough boolit for use in rifles and auto handguns. Gp

[bangerjim]

I was gifted 12lbs. of copper hard babbit. I've been mixing this into my usual alloy. I can't get this to work in a bottom pour pot as the alloy freezes in the spout, but with ladle casting it makes a very pretty and tough boolit for use in rifles and auto handguns. Gp

Try heating your spout with a propane or butane torch. Works for me every time! I keep a grill lighter right by my 4-20's for just that purpose.

banger

[303Guy]

After 2 weeks my alloy has hardened up significantly more. I should make up a new batch omitting the copper for comparison to get an idea of what the copper is contributing to the mix. I also need to do a hammer test on this alloy. I still don't know how well it casts. More parts for my PID temperature controller arrived, now all I need is an enclosure for it. Then I can do some tests.

[popper]

For those interested, https://books.google.com/books?id=vV...page&q&f=false
Page 58, Cu < ~0.6%, Sb < 9% Sn any % = a matrix of the metals. Above ~0.6% Cu, Sb < ~8% = Cu6Sn5 plus matrix. SbSn only forms at very high Sb %.
Page 52 discusses heat treating and aging. At low percentages (<1%?) As, Ag, Cu are grain refiners. The rest of the book doesn't pertain to anything we do. Data is from 1988.
Matrix is a mixture. IMC is a specific mixture, i.e. not particularly stable structure compound.
An alloy is a stable compound, not susceptible to supercooling that creates layers of various compounds. Layman's terms.
Mohr hardness of Cu2Sb is ~3, right along with Cu. Pb is 1.5. Don't know what Cu6Sb5 mohr is but you guys don't get any anyway with low Cu content.
Enjoy.

[303Guy]

Thanks popper.

Would that be % by weight (mass) or by mole? My copper was 0.66% by mass and 1.98% by mole (assuming I got it right) which would therefore be on the high side if it is by mass but over the top if by mole. My alloy does seem favorable though and as I mentioned, cuts the sprue rather than 'plucking' it. I haven't had the chance to unblock my bottom pour and set up my PID controller (I did get the heat sink compound today).

[popper]

I assume mole, the article didn't say, university type (high$$) study so I'd say mole. Most phase diagrams are At wt (mole). Took a lot of googling to find this report, finally. It is a 'solid' phase report.
Not being a metal scientist, I assume the 'normal' stuff mixed puts the Cu into Pb as a toughener, my 1% actually becomes a hardener and the 2% really hardens it but is still very malleable. Not sure the hammer test really tells us much as I can't fracture 7% Sb/Pb cast at all. Threads here say anything above 6% is bad. I made some from super hard I'll try when I get a chance. Obviously 6% Sb is way more than we need for boolits.
I can positively state that the H.T. 2% PCd didn't leave any Pb or Sb trace in the barrel, as checked with a really strong bore light - 5 AC, 5 H.T. shot. Other than a crazy 'what if' experiment, my intent was for 300BO 144 gr. PB trying to push past 1800 with MOA in 1:10 twist 18". Worst case test would be the 308W 1:10 24" at 2700 fps. Worked! Even with NO neck tension, seated way short and sized to bore! And NO expensive tin (well I did use pure tin to get the Cu in so I had a known start alloy).
Note, a study of lead free solder showed increased grain refining from Cu with increased number of re-flows. Layman terms, repeated heat cycling increases refining. Also saw that tin powders at real low temps, supposedly Russian soldier tin buttons powdered in winter and caused the war to be lost. Guess their pants fell off?
Nothing more to till I repeat the 308W tests.
Edit: my conclusion with very limited testing is that the low Sb high Cu with As H.T.d shoots like jacketed bulllets and is cheap to make. I don't have BT or SP moulds BUT! Good BC cast boolits anyone?

[303Guy]

That new copper-tin alloy casting is now even harder! I will need a BH tester to see what's really going on. I also need to fix the blocked pouring nozzle with a full pot!

I would like to know just how much Sb in in that alloy.

[popper]

Another H.T.d 2% test, sized to bore (3088ish) ~2700 fps. Shot one without GC & LeverE, that didn't work, had to use 1% Cu to clean the bore. These were seated longer without problems. 1st 2 shots were 1% normal, followed by 2%, then no GC, 2 1% to clean, couple more 2%. Temp was reasonable today 85F but sun started bothering me, scope view fades. Did get pretty good with 20ga. @ 50yds. Anyway need to cast this 2% and try in PB 300BO, PCd. HiTek isn't doing too well.Attachment 148936

[303Guy]

OK. I'm looking at your target and thinking I got to get to the range and just make any kind of 'group'! Green with envy! The rain is letting up and it is definitely spring.

Just an observation; I'm finding that my boolits don't change in hardness over time (well, they do if air dropped - they harden in a few days). Is it the copper doing that perhaps? Or the tin? Or both?

[303Guy]

I don't call those good groups,

Oh I don't know. It's way better than a blank target!

[P Flados]

I have never really tried to blend alloys.

Decades ago my cast was mostly range scrap for 38s

In recent years it was mostly COWW or COWW plus Pb with not a lot of success at hot 357 max or 30 Herrett loads

Powder coat helped a lot for leading, but with high pressure/high velocity 30 Herretts, bullets would tumble.

I have gotten the itch and started working toward blending. I have read this thread twice, but I am not sure that it it contains "solid facts" on what methods and what blends are right for what I want. It does seem to indicate that adding Cu is very much worth trying.

Step 1 was a couple of batches of WWs sorted & smelted for COWW & SOWW

Step 2 was a PID setup from my 10# lee dripmaster

Step 3 was a cobbled together a hardness tester. It is simple wooden contraption that pushes a 0.175" steel BB into an ingot with a 4 to one advantage. I use a luggage scale to measure force applied. I use a dial caliper to measure dent diameter & calculate BHN. Test runs on Water Drop COWW gave 22 BHN for one bar and 24 for another. Air Cooled SOWW came in close to 5 BHN.

Step 4 was an evilbay purchase of pewter ingots

Step 5 was acquisition & smelting of a good batch of roofing lead (the lead sheathing used for vent pipes).

Step 6 was a test of dissolving scrap Cu house wire into pewter.

I am thinking of going at it with "try the easy route first" in combination with a "be systematic and repeatable".

I estimate ~5% Cu can be blended into my pewter. Melt couple of pounds in the Lee, let it stabilizes at 680 °F, add pre-tinned wire, wait and/or stir.

With Pewter enriched to Cu at 5%, clean COWW and clean Pb, I can get pretty close to the blend that some have bragged on (50-50 COWW - PB and ~3% Sn).

However, I would prefer to stick with bottom pour. Sounds like it would work better with less Cu.

I have not seem much documentation for a systematic "start at the proven performance level & work the additives down until performance get unsat" test

I tweaked bumpo's wonder tool and came up with a matrix of mixes I am thinking of blending. A big first goal would just be getting AC vs WD values for hardness.

	Sn	Sb	As	Cu
Description	Tin %	Antimony %	Arsenic %	Copper %	Silver %	Lead %	Wt (lbs)	Hardness		($ / lb)	Price ($)		oz	grns
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	2	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.20
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.0306	Brinell 23		$10.00	$0.31		0.490	214
Result	1.00%	1.05%	0.082%	0.050%	0.00%	97.8%	3.031	9.9		$0.32	$0.96
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	2	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.20
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.0652	Brinell 23		$10.00	$0.65		1.043	456
Result	2.00%	1.10%	0.082%	0.106%	0.00%	96.7%	3.065	10.2		$0.42	$1.30
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	2	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.20
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.1010	Brinell 23		$10.00	$1.01		1.616	706
Result	3.00%	1.16%	0.081%	0.163%	0.00%	95.6%	3.101	10.5		$0.54	$1.66
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	1.5	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.15
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1.5	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.68
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.0289	Brinell 23		$10.00	$0.29		0.462	202
Result	1.00%	1.54%	0.124%	0.048%	0.00%	97.3%	3.029	10.3		$0.37	$1.11
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	1.5	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.15
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1.5	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.68
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.0636	Brinell 23		$10.00	$0.64		1.018	445
Result	2.00%	1.59%	0.122%	0.104%	0.00%	96.2%	3.064	10.6		$0.48	$1.46
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	1.5	Brinell 5		$0.10	$0.15
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.30%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	0%	96.5%	1.5	Brinell 12		$0.45	$0.68
Pewter + Cu(@682)	89.22%	5.79%	0%	5.00%	0%	0.0%	0.0990	Brinell 23		$10.00	$0.99		1.584	692
Result	3.00%	1.64%	0.121%	0.160%	0.00%	95.1%	3.099	11.0		$0.59	$1.82

[P Flados]

I was surprised by how soft water dropped was after I made up my first mix.

I was then surprised again by how much it hardened up at the 1 day mark.

Mix 150918-1	Tin %	Antimony %	Arsenic %	Copper %	Lead %	Wt (lbs)	Hardness	($ / lb)
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	1	Brinell 5	$0.10
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.5%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@800)	88.28%	5.73%	0.00%	6.00%	0.00%	0.0636	Brinell 23	$10.00
Mix 150918-1	2.96%	1.63%	0.12%	0.185%	95.20%	2.06	10.93	$0.57
	Date	Dent (in)	Force (lb)	Multiplier	BB (in)	BB (mm)	BHN	Days
Air Cooled	09/18/15	0.109	38	4	0.172	4.369	10.2
Air Cooled	09/19/15	0.102	34.8	4	0.172	4.369	10.8	1
Water Dropped	09/18/15	0.097	38	4	0.172	4.369	13.2
Water Dropped	09/19/15	0.083	46.2	4	0.172	4.369	22.5	1

[P Flados]

More discussion on my testing plans (mostly lube choices) over at

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...99#post3381599

[P Flados]

Current status as shown below. Note that I found that I can misread my caliper for getting BHN if light is not perfect. Sunlight is pretty good. I may need to adjust readings taken without sunlight (like today's).

Mix 150918-1	Tin %	Antimony %	Arsenic %	Copper %	Lead %	Wt (lbs)	Hardness	($ / lb)
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	1	Brinell 5	$0.10
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.5%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@800)	88.28%	5.73%	0.00%	6.00%	0.0%	0.0636	Brinell 23	$10.00
Mix 150918-1	2.96%	1.63%	0.12%	0.185%	95.20%	2.06	10.9	$0.57
	Date	Dent (in)	Force (lb)	Multiplier	BB (in)	BB (mm)	BHN	Days
Air Cooled	09/18/15	0.109	38	4	0.172	4.369	10.2
Air Cooled	09/19/15	0.102	34.8	4	0.172	4.369	10.8	1
Water Dropped	09/18/15	0.097	38	4	0.172	4.369	13.2
Water Dropped	09/19/15	0.095	46.2	4	0.172	4.369	16.8	1
Water Dropped	09/20/15	0.095	46.1	4	0.172	4.369	16.8	2
Water Dropped	09/21/15	0.095	46.1	4	0.172	4.369	16.8	3
Mix 150920	Tin %	Antimony %	Arsenic %	Copper %	Lead %	Wt (lbs)	Hardness	($ / lb)
Pure Lead	0%	0%	0%	0%	100.0%	2	Brinell 5	$0.10
Clip On Wheel Weight	0.5%	3.00%	0.25%	0%	96.5%	1	Brinell 12	$0.45
Pewter + Cu(@800)	88.28%	5.73%	0.00%	6.00%	0.0%	0.1020	Brinell 23	$10.00
Mix 150920	3.06%	1.16%	0.08%	0.197%	95.57%	3.10	10.9	$0.54
	Date	Dent (in)	Force (lb)	Multiplier	BB (in)	BB (mm)	BHN	Days
Air Cooled	09/20/15	0.13	46	4	0.172	4.369	8.1
Water Dropped	09/20/25	0.117	46	4	0.172	4.369	10.4
Water Dropped	09/21/15	0.105	46.2	4	0.172	4.369	13.4	1

[popper]

Better day with the BO. ~65F and a little breeze.
Attachment 152523
Rotated UR to LR - 16gr 1% HT, 16.5 1% HT, 17 1% HT, 17 2%. 144gr PB boolit, didn't chrony but should be ~ 2k fps. UL didn't have nose PCd, rest were uncoated base.
2nd try
Attachment 152524
2% did better than 1st try. Didn't call any fliers but could have been me.
2% alloy is same as 308W alloy.
edit: The boolit I'm using has a stepped edge plain base. The 16.5 (UL) group wasn't good as those were coated nose down and evidently the step wasn't coated evenly, plus uneven coating on the nose. The real surprize was the 2% had some slightly rounded bases. They, like the rest, were coated base down. All were cooked base down. My conclusion is that the 2% at this pressure level can be used like a GC boolit. Got to work on the wiggle of my shoulder so the groups are better.

[Medicaus]

So guys, heres a question about getting copper into the alloy as I haven't read all 25 pages... (Forgive me).

2 thoughts:
1: Copper sulfate, does this actually work? I can get pewter, but means i'd have to use loads to get any reasonable amount of copper in there. copper sulfate can be calculated by weight as to how much you reasonably could be adding to your mix no? Has anyone come up with a copper sulfate by weight calculation for adding it to the alloy mix?

2: You are talking about adding copper from PCB's etc... has anyone thought of just holding a piece of copper wire over the molten lead, and heating the wire with a blow torch and making it drip molten into the the lead and stirring it in? Surely this may work without having to have the lead smoking hot? Just a thought.

[Hamish]

Depends on your goal. With the copper sulfate or tinned copper speaker
wire, it's tough to get an exact percentage from batch to batch. Popper can speak to that with the CS method far better than I can.

The only way that I am aware of to get into that 1.5-2% range reliably and repeatably that
I know of is by babbitt.

I seriously, seriously doubt that dripping copper into the pot will work.

[popper]

Copper sulfate, does this actually work? Yup. Easiest way I know to come close to a know % is to use an alloy with known amount of tin or zinc. Add some CS, mix in and skim the powder off the top (it will be grey vs white). When adding CS & you get no more grey powder, done and Cu is same % as Sn or Zn. I've used new pennies for Zn but I mostly use isocore which is 1% Sn. Make a batch and mix with plain isocore to get desired %. Wear a painter's mask when doing this - no fumes but fine grey powder is not good to the lungs. Note: Sb MUST be higher % than Cu for any Cu % greater than 0.3%. Pb will take the 0.3% but extra Cu needs to combine with Sb or you get plain Cu which is NOT good - it doesn't skim off either. You can use #2, replace tin with Cu and use that for a 'sweetener' alloy.

[Medicaus]

Thats really interesting, if you do get some Cu come to the surface can you just add a bit more antimony? I do wonder what would happen if you went almost 40/40 Pb/Sn + 15/5 Cu/Sb? In your experience does the tin help the mix as well, or just the antimony as almost a binder? Really start getting that copper content up there. How do you find mixes with lots of Zn pour and cast, I keep hearing how bad Zn contamination is... My stuff arrives shortly and I'll get cracking on some loads shortly, can't wait.