High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

[Jailer]

bstone5, I think you are getting your terms mixed up. Rotometals superhard doesn't have any copper content. The supertough has 7.5% copper.

It all depends on the makeup of your alloy where your final percentages will be.

[badgeredd]

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[303Guy]

Can anyone tell me how a high tin alloy with copper would perform as a boolit alloy? I'm thinking that as I have quite a bit of pewter I could dissolve copper in it to saturation than alloy that with lead. I understand that tin can absorb around 7% copper. So a 5% tin-copper alloy would have 0.35% copper.

[badgeredd]

Cccccccccc

[303Guy]

When the Sn gets too far out of wack, I've observed variations in boolit hardness in the same batch of castings.

Yeah. I've found variations on the same casting! But that was with an alloy containing Sb and Cu. What about the black powder guys using 20:1 Pb-Sn? I have an alloy batch which is high in tin but still has some Pb in it and it seems OK but is hard to cast and oxidizes easily. Three sample boolits fired into rubber grinds expanded alright but produced and oval mushroom.

Pewter can absorb about 1% copper - memory error! Copper would therefore be a bit on the low side at around 0.05%. I'd like to know more about tin wash in the bore. Does it cause a problem and can it be avoided with the right lube? My next question is where do I find Antimony in my parts?

[badgeredd]

problem

[runfiverun]

i'd go for the lino if it's just a bolster metal.


I have considered just a tin and copper alloy but worry about the way a tin alloy has a tendency to soften over time.
I don't know if the copper would affect this.
might be awesome to have a .5% copper 3-4% tin alloy for paper patching though.

[303Guy]

Thanks, badgeredd

I've found copper and tin a bit difficult to cast. I'm not sure of the exact mix but when I diluted it and added what I think is lino it cast OK and has a matt appearance.

[Multigunner]

I've seen adds for bronze alloy rods that could be turned to make .357 bullets. IIRC they had lead bronze alloys along with several other types.

A long very light copper alloy bullet pushed to higher than normal velocity for a .357 or .38, and with a deep nose cavity drilled to make the bullet tail heavy to encourage tumbling in flesh rather than expansion would be a monster self defense load, probably penetrate some concealable body armor as well.

[olaf455]

I've seen adds for bronze alloy rods that could be turned to make .357 bullets. IIRC they had lead bronze alloys along with several other types.

A long very light copper alloy bullet pushed to higher than normal velocity for a .357 or .38, and with a deep nose cavity drilled to make the bullet tail heavy to encourage tumbling in flesh rather than expansion would be a monster self defense load, probably penetrate some concealable body armor as well.

And walls, must be aware of beyond target. Especially at home...

[Alan in Vermont]

I started out reading the posts to see what was required for a tinned copper wire to be usable for adding Cu to our alloys. Reason I'm curious is that I have several feet of #2 and some #4 braided, tinned copper wire. I stripped the jacket off with the intent on scrapping it but if it's worth anything as an alloying material I will offer it on here instead.

Many tiny strands which mic out to .016, individually tinned and braided/woven/wrapped into a #2 or 4 conductor. The jacket made it about as limber as a broomstick but with that off it flexes like a rope. Would the .016 strands be too big to readily dissolve? Anyone want to try it I'll send you some.

[375RUGER]

Alan,
That will disolve just fine. I dipped mine in a good acid flux first.

[375RUGER]

I set out to go to the range and then remembered it is closed for range maintenance on wednesday mornings. Instead I went the other direction to some sand dunes. I had 2 loads that I had finalized for each powder and was sure were accurate and wanted to decide which one's to let SWMBO try.
45 ACP, boolit=230g NOE large HP (all lubed and ready to go ~231-232g)
4.5g 700-X my standard 230g load that never fails, this one i already knew was accurate but use it as my benchmark.
5.6g Universal
5.8g W231
all did really well, but that's not the point.
Several weeks ago I dissolved some fine strand copper wire and some copper sulphate crystals directly into some range lead. (edit: to clarify the copper sulphate was used to clean up the range lead, the wire was introduced to 63/37 and then only enought of this was added to give about 1.5%Sn in the final alloy) Then I poured a bunch becasue I was going out of country and would be gone a few weeks giving these little beauties time to age.
Long story short, I set out to test for accuracy this morning but due to the sand dunes was able to recover several slugs. I was not even going to do expansion/penetration testing until I settled on a load to carry.
I really like the way these hold together. I weighed all 5 of those in the pic and not one weighs less than 230g. Expansion diameter varied from .770-.850".
This is exactly what I was after. Can't wait to try some in the rifles now.

[Raffiki]

Hey everybody, I read through this thread and I was wondering about using higher amounts of copper to avoid gas checks and lube. I haven't been able to find specific properties of the alloys that have 50-60% lead, but it seems that even with a very high copper content the melting point isn't too high. Obviously you want to keep the copper and tin on the low side, but a cast boolit that can be dropped and shot at any velocity would be worth it in some applications.

http://www.concast.com/c94300.php

[badgeredd]

Hey everybody, I read through this thread and I was wondering about using higher amounts of copper to avoid gas checks and lube. I haven't been able to find specific properties of the alloys that have 50-60% lead, but it seems that even with a very high copper content the melting point isn't too high. Obviously you want to keep the copper and tin on the low side, but a cast boolit that can be dropped and shot at any velocity would be worth it in some applications.

http://www.concast.com/c94300.php

IMHO, you are not going to get there for several reasons.

1) It appears in my research that 1% copper is about as high as you can get into a lead alloy without several problems, including a non-homogeneous alloy.

2) You'll likely need gas checks for anything over 1800 fps (that is a guess based on past shooting with higher copper/lead/antimony/tin alloys).

3) LUBE likely cannot be deleted from the cast boolit process.

If you want to eliminate lube and gas checks, you'd be better off buying jacketed bullets.

Edd

[303Guy]

If you want to eliminate lube and gas checks, you'd be better off buying jacketed bullets.

Or try paper patching.

[nighthunter]

This is a post that I put up in another thread. It pertains the copper sulfate sweetened alloy.


I use this same bullet in several .223's, an old Savage 340, a Ruger 77 and a Bush Master semi auto. This bullet with gas check installed weighs 63 grains. I size them .225. The load I have settled on is 22.0 grains IMR 4895. Loaded length is 2.150. I have a photo of a 30 shot group at 100 yds but I can't figure out how to post it with Windows 8. 23 of the shots are in less than an inch with the other 7 not very far away. My alloy is one of the copper enriched mixtures using copper sulfate to enrich the alloy. This bullet and load work extremely well in all 3 .223's I have tried it in and the results are repeatable. Somehow I will figure out how to get the photo online.

Nighthunter


Attached Images Attached Images File Type: jpg 30shotgroup.jpg (37.5 KB, 53 views)

The bullet is the NOE 225-55. I guesstimate my velocity in the 2500 fps range. I couldn't recover any fired bullets. I'll have to try a range with different berm material.

Nighthunter

[357maximum]

My 7TCU boolits that I have picked out the 100 yard sand pile @ 2500 fps launch speeds, look alot like 375Rugers pics, but I am losing a bit more of the edge of the mushrooms cap due to abrasion and much higher speed. Most of mine look more like the boolit second from left in fact.

Adding babbit and copper enhanced babbit to my alloys has been thee best thing I have ever learned for making my J-WORD speed rifle loads sing a merry tune.....THANK YOU EDD, and BRUCE......much appreciate the tips.

[olaf455]

THANK YOU EDD, and BRUCE......much appreciate the tips.

Much abliged...

[meeesterpaul]

Here is a scan of some large letterpress foundry type that has some copper in it.