Blackfooted Ferrets Discovered in SD

[pmer]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...2D1126&first=1

Here is an image of a Black Footed Ferret.

On our last day we were behind a ranchers barn and in both his cow yards (not pastures) it was fence to fence prairie dogs. For some reason he let it go and the dogs were out of control. We shot and shot but couldn't get them all because some would go in their dens and get missed. And they would stay to repopulate the town.

All those mounds and holes would be tough on the cattle. If it was mine I think I would have poisoned and bladed it flat and then reseed.

[btroj]

Face it, not many of us are about ferrets, no matter what color the feet.

I don't care about prairie dogs either. Shoot, don't shoot. Poison them, don't poison them.

What I do care aout is property rights. Every little bit of ground we give up is another nail in the coffin. For a Tea Party guy I am surprised you don't see that.

[Bob Krack]

Bowfin,
I guess I just do NOT understand your question. If I understand correctly, you or someone you know was hired by the INDIANS to do a study of prarie dogs and/or ferret and/or grazing cattle on the same INDIAN'S land?

If a recommendation was made to the INDIANS, what is the question? Is it "what should the INDIANS do?", "what would you/I/or joe blow do?" or is it ""how can I/we convince the INDIANS to accept our recommendation?" or?

I saw absolutely NO reference to the "environmental" merits of the issue in the original post.

All I saw, perhaps wrongly so, was a complaint that the INDIANS were not of the same mind as you or your acquaintances. If that is the case, my response is "SO WHAT?" INDIAN usage of INDIAN land is not my business and I don't really think I have a right to say that I agree or disagree.

As i said in my first and only other post, I intend no flames by my words, I am truly confused by what you say and not knowing what you are asking.

Bob

[M-Tecs]

I didn't think there were so many who thought conservation and the hunting/shooting sports were inherently adversarial as I have seen on this thread.

I would love to see the return of large prairie dog towns with a lot of blackfooted ferrets. I don’t see that conservation and the hunting/shooting sports are inherently adversarial. I do see disagreement with your conclusions.

You asked “do you think that land would be worth a LOT more with prairie dogs and blackfooted ferrets, or cattle?” All stated cattle. Than you stated that “Land that contains blackfooted ferrets now is worth MILLIONS of dollars when the Indians sell the conservation easement to the Feds or to some big conservation or wildlife organization.” Most don’t agree to the value or that the Indians would sell a conservation easement to the Feds or to some big conservation or wildlife organization.

You also stated that there are “a few dozen left” It’s more like 750 to 1000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-footed_ferret & http://www.defenders.org/black-foote...et/basic-facts

Next you stated “Prairie Dogs (ruining land) is one of those urban legends, mostly told by ranchers who want to ruin their own land by overgrazing.” I strongly disagree.

I hope that you are correct that “there are many conservation and wildlife organizations that would chip into buy a conservation easement on the land. It is done frequently here in Nebraska by the Game & Parks Commission and Ducks Unlimited.” Unlike Ducks Unlimited I don’t see were the money to purchase these conservation easement is coming from. If the money does come it mostly likely will be from preservationist groups and not conservation groups.

Per http://www.defenders.org/black-foote...et/basic-facts A healthy population of black-footed ferrets requires very large prairie dog colonies. Scientists estimate that more than 10,000 acres of prairie dog colonies are required, and results from the various reintroduction sites show that it may actually take more than 20,000 acres. If the land still could be used for hunting that would be awesome but like most I believe that if money comes it will be from a preservationist groups that will close it to all uses.

Like most here I fully support all conservation efforts but I also oppose all preservationist efforts.

[btroj]

Yep, Ducks Unlimited promoted watershed restoration because they wanted to shoot the ducks.

The black footed ferrets are not going to I prove the quality of shooting opportunities, they will destroy them. The greenies will pay tons to keep people from shooting dogs there.

Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[atom73]

I live in SD and have dealt with the tribes here. River is right when he says nothing will happen anytime soon, tribal councils are notoriously inefficient, corrupt, and SLOW. The tribes have p.enty of money, they just put a bid to buy Reynolds prairie out in the black hills so it really isn't a question of money, they have enough. What is most likely going to happen is nothing, the status quo will be maintained because that is what is easiest for the tribe to decide.

[jmsj]

Cattle. The ferrets were most likely transplanted there. They found out when they tried the same experiment here, the ferrets are too stupid to survive. The predators get them in short order. I don't know what kind of environment the ferrets originally existed in, but it must have been a real la-la land, with plenty of vermin for the predators. I think they would do better in colonies of Richardson's ground squirrels.

I have to agree with waksupi. An ultra ultra rich landowner in our area had this pie in the sky theory that if he brought in prairie dogs and established a population then introduced some black footed ferrets, that he would save the species and be able to repopulate the west with ferrets. For a while we heard about the great research that he was doing in tracking the population growth of the ferrets and how they were growing in numbers(no one but the researchers were allowed n the ferret area) After a couple of years we didn't hear anything about the "research" but we did notice that prairie dog towns started appearing on land that was neighboring his. You can see planted fields and pastures that lay in ruin from the prairie dogs in the surrounding area. Now I am not a scientist nor an "enviromentalist" but from seeing what happened here I can postulate that black footed ferrets are not a good limiter to prairie dog populations.
Here in the Northeast NM we are classified as a shortgrass prarie and I can tell you that the prairie dog lays waste to the land. Where they move in they dessimate the vegetation with or without help from livestock. If there are no grazing animals to compete and there is more available feed they merely breed faster. They can ruin planted fields to the point where you cannot irrigate or harvest crops due to the mounds and holes in the fields. I onced went to work for a ranch that a couple of years before had 160 acres of the prettiest broam grass hayfield around. They tell me that this hayfield was over 70 years old. In the course of a couple years the prairie dogs had turned it into dust and weeds. Because of the prairie dog holes the flood irrigation water runs into the tunnels and does not spread out across the field and water the crops. Even after killing off the praire dogs it is difficult to recultivate the land. The land around here does not take well to deep plowing (needed to collapse the tunnels and flatten the mounds) as we learned in the dust bowl era. It already takes about 40 acres to the animal unit for cattle and most small ranchers here are just barely hanging on. Making room for the prairie dog means that many of these small operators, some of these ranches have been in their families way over 100 years, will not be able to stay on their land.
I am not preaching the extermination of the prairie dog.The praire dog will always exist on public lands. But I do not think that the prairie dog builds a more productive ecology where he exists. Up here we have deer,elk,antelope,buffalo, black bear and turkeys and I have never seen any of these animals grazing or foraging in a prairie dog town. And I cannot agree with imposing prairie dogs on a private landowner.
JMHO, jmsj

[starmac]

You can't contain them by shooting them either.

[DCM]

Bowfin do you or anybody else her really want the US government telling the what they can do on their land??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have studied enough American history to know that the USG has really raped the Native Americans repeatedly!! Also the Natives aren't alone here, but have gotten it worse than most!

Are ferrets really more important than people? If so why don't you keep and feed a black foot ferret colony on your property?

I really can't believe I am typing this here.

[starmac]

I have a question.
Why exactly did the tribe hire these environmental consultants, or was some party besides the tribe paying for the study.
What was their goal.
Is this a private group trying to talk the tribe into saving the ferrets playground?
What is the name of this group?
Is the govt involved in any way, even in funding the group.
If by chance some sporting ***, or conservation ***. somehow buys the land or rights to it(doubtful) could the dogs still be hunted.
How would whoever be responsible to to keep the dogs contained to the said land or will they just want more as the town grows?


If the govt is involved in any way, I am totally against it. I truly hope a ferret is very low on the priority list of our currant govt.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
I guess your really commited to this black ferret issue.
You wrote:

How did you come to the conclusion we can't have both?
Better yet, let's make that an open question to everybody: "Is it possible for human beings and blackfooted ferrets to co-exist on the same planet?"

Yes it is possible. There is enough public lands that they can stay on.

You also wrote:

Well... book smarts are nice place to start...now tell us what you have done, so we can get a better feel for your "boots on the ground, skin in the game" conservation efforts...

My skin in the game is- I have been a farmer, cowboy and small rancher and have had to deal with them before. My family can track our continous agricultural history in America back to the 1870's In my previous post I wrote of the damage they can do to the land. It has always amazed me how people that do not live on the land and have no real "skin in the game" make rules for those of us who do. You cannot imagine the work, worry and economic loss that trying to deal with these animals and keeping an agricultural business going is.
And lastly you wrote:

Here is what I am going to do: I am going to get hold of the biologist, get some updates, and work with the Izaak Walton League to see what can be done with these ferrets and this pasture and the Indian reservation...

...and I already know what most of the rest of you are going to do...or not do...

The land you are speaking of is private land, sovereign land. It is up to the Indians as to what they feel are the best options and practices for their land. Like I stated before there is room for them on public lands. Once you get these "enviromental" groups involved the goverment is not far behind. We have all seen how the tree huggers in goverment if given an inch take a mile to advance their over-reaching agendas. If they had their way there would be no hunting period on public lands. Here in New Mexico we can no longer use lead shot for upland game. Do you know how much money that adds to an afternoon of dove hunting. I can no longer justify the money it takes away from my family to take my kids out dove hunting anymore. Can you imagine the added cost if all the Prairie dog shooters had to use non-toxic bullets? Just think of the prairie dog population explosion if prairie dog shooters stopped culling the prairie dog
I can appreciate your enthusiasm but you seem very intent on everybody agreeing with your point of view without considering their point of view.
Just a thought, jmsj

[starmac]

I googled the Issac Walton League.
The first paragraph on their website pretty much tells the story. Obama (or radical liberal) agenda.
Does one really want to get them involved with any private property.

Always On: Reliable electricity in an age of coal plant retirement
The idea that we need traditional fossil-fuel power plants to meet our nation's minimum electricity needs, called “baseload power,” is becoming increasingly obsolete. The Izaak Walton League explores how current energy market forces—such as state-based renewable energy standards, lower building costs for wind and solar generation, and a transition from localized distribution networks to regional transmission systems—are paving the way for cleaner, more efficient ways to meet our energy needs. : : MORE

[starmac]

I am still reading up on their website. So far I have not found a reason to ever want to support their cause. A member of earthshare, why don't I go vote for Obummer tomorrow.

I am sure they have done something right, even a busted clock is right twice a day.

[DCM]

How did you come to the conclusion we can't have both?

Better yet, let's make that an open question to everybody: "Is it possible for human beings and blackfooted ferrets to co-exist on the same planet?"



Well... book smarts are nice place to start...now tell us what you have done, so we can get a better feel for your "boots on the ground, skin in the game" conservation efforts...



Me neither...

Here is what I am going to do: I am going to get hold of the biologist, get some updates, and work with the Izaak Walton League to see what can be done with these ferrets and this pasture and the Indian reservation...

...and I already know what most of the rest of you are going to do...or not do...

1:I never said or even inferred that we cannot have both.
I even questioned why you don't start your own colony on YOUR own property.

2:As for my book smarts I was refering to the way the USG have repeatedly shafted the Native americans.
Nice how you even shortened the sentence on that one. Running for office???
Sorry I am not 200+ years old so my book smarts will have to sufice when it comes to history beyond my age, can't change that.

3:I see someone has coverd the liberal league.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
Obviously you have never spent much time around a farm/ranch. Your theory sounds great but it is only a theory.
I have seen prairie dog towns start near the edge of a hay field. Then the next thing you know they are making mounds in the hayfield. sporadically at first but then they start making more and more. I have seen prairie dogs try to colonize a hay field in the time between the harvest and the next green up.
I once saw a ranch lay fallow for a couple of years due to the death of a rancher. They had no prairie dogs and no one ran cattle on the land for a couple of years. Before the ranch laid idle there was plenty of buffallo and gramma grass. Then we started to see the mounds appear. I have seen prairiie dog towns on land that had been in CRP for 10 years. We once had an infirmary pasture that we left alone so that it would be clean of manure if we needed to quarenteen(sp?) some animals. The grass was good and tall and one day we noticed the start of a coulple of prairie dog mounds.
I see that you say that the great roaming herds of buffalo are the limiter for the prairie dogs. Where are these great herds today? Are you suggesting that we go back to pre westward expansion? I personally take offense to you stating that if I have a prairie dog town that I am overgrazng my land when you have never seen my land.
I am wondering if you have gotten your information first hand or just out of your propaganda handouts?
jmsj

[starmac]

I see where under events there was a trapshoot . I'm also sure that local chapters have more than what is advertised on the leagues websight.

They also are proud of the fact that the league supports Al Gores agenda.
Curtailing Climate Change
Increasingly, climate change is an issue of critical importance for League members. We are already seeing changes in fish and wildlife habits and habitats. We are working to raise awareness of these adverse impacts and to promote responsible policies that will reduce global warming emissions in a meaningful way.

[waksupi]

Apparently a lack of knowledge of prairie dog diet. THEY are what does the overgrazing. Just what do you think they eat? Rocks?

The fact they carry bubonic plague is also a strike against them.

[jmsj]

Bowfin,
From my experience coddling the grass will not stop the prairie dog. I have given you a few examples of them invading healthy grasslands and planted crops. Overgrazing may help them get a start but I can't say for sure but think of this, if the livestock have eaten all the feed what are the prairie dogs going to eat?
As to why they didn't cause the buffalo to go extinct I have a theory (mind you this is just a theory). Back in the day a single prairie fire could wipe out hundreds or thousand of square miles. This would wipe out the feed and starve out the prairie dogs and the buffalo would just move on. I also believe that before we started trying control the rivers and the put flood control devices in place that more of the land flooded and killed the prairie dogs in their tunnels. I have personally used flood irrrigation to kill of prairie dogs before they got too bad. I would imagine before the westward expansion there were many many more animals. Predators and prey alike. I would imagine because of the sheer numbers of a prairie dog town there were more predators located around the towns. I have even read accounts of Native Americans trapping them for food. And other than oral history there is no detailed data on how it really was.
Through necessity we removed many of the predators from the land. Think of the original range of the grizzly bear, wolf and lion. They were probably in the area where you live now. Would you like to have them wandering around the neighborhood where your kids play? We have also had to make the land more productive to feed not only our country but many others. This ability to produce food beyond our consumption is the base of our prosperity as a nation. We have also populated the country to the point that civilization neccesarily pushed the wildlife back. In my opinion "Conservation" is about managing the numbers. I seriuosly doubt we will ever extinct the prairie dog. They are tough resourceful animals and they will breed to the conditions of their enviroment. When feed is abundant their population literally explodes exponentionaly. In lean years they breed less and resolve themselves to cannibalism.
I have seen pictures of prairie dog towns that are miles long and wide. Why are the ferrets not thriving there? I told you of the rich rancher here that tried to establish prairie dog towns here to establish the black footed ferret-he failed after probably putting millions of dollars into the project. I don't understand why the black footed ferret is failing but it not thriugh the lack of prairie dogs.
JHMO, jmsj

[starmac]

Jms, you need to read up on the subject before predicting the prairie dog will not go extinct.

Just today I read on the earthshare website that 10,000 species a year have been going extinct.
At that alarming rate, I don't even give the human race very many more years.

[starmac]

Yup them boolit casters have been sitting quietly around prairie dog towns watching them get bigger, just hoping to bag a trophy ferret. geesh