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Thread: What are your lube "Performance Parameters"?

  1. #1
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    What are your lube "Performance Parameters"?

    As part of the work being done and reported on the "Extreme Lube" thread, we need to re-establish a general "bar" for what a lube must do. The point being to engineer a lube to perform in all situations, we must know what ARE those situations. I'm going to start with a list of my own based partly on much that has already been discussed, and will edit to add to it the suggestions you make as we go.

    1. Must be temperature insensitive. The lube must be able to stand long strings of shooting in the heat without deteriorating groups, and must have minimal "cold barrel" characteristics, keeping POI constant to 1 MOA through starts and stops. Ambients of 105F to ZeroF seems reasonable to me.

    2. Must be velocity insensitive. To me, this means SOFT, I want the lube to work in .45 Colt revolvers at Cowboy Action velocities as well as extremely high velocities in rifles with fast twists where high pressure and high land force is the norm. I'm going to say 700 fps from .30-45 caliber is a good bench mark for the low end, and the high end will be whatever your loading skills can be. Many cast shooters don't care to get above 16-1800 fps with accuracy in .30 caliber (for example), but some will, and those who shoot at very high velocity need this lube to NOT be the limiting factor. For those shooting at milder velocities, "Extreme Lube" would still offer all the other advantages outlined here, which is more than 95% of the formulas I've tried will do.

    3. Must be insensitive to barrel surface finish. Some guns have rough bores, some pitted bores, some highly polished. This affects lube performance greatly, but some recent work has proven that a lube can be formulated for both.

    4. Must work with conventional lube-sizing equipment. I do not consider compatibility with the pan-lube technique a requirement for the lube, but some may. My gut tells me a truly "Extreme" lube won't melt easily below the smoke point of most waxes. Some of the high melt-point lubes can be poured into stick moulds when they are made, since they aren't easily remelted and poured into sizers.

    5. Must work with a variety of lube groove designs from Loverin to Lee to Keith to Silhouette styles. This is all about viscosity, lubricity, being cohesive, and having the right tack. The biggest issue to achieving this is being able to do it across a wide temperature range. Edit to add that we want the lube to be minimally sensitive to number of grooves lubed on a multi-groove boolit, although a Loverin boolit with seven grooves lubed is likely to shoot differently than it would with only the space just above the gas check lubed no matter the formula, just to give an extreme example. If you lube them all the same for the same gun, it doesn't matter.

    6. Must be storage and handling friendly. Must not corrode brass or equipment, must stay in the grooves during handling, and must not leak into the powder when subjected to 160F (direct summer sunlight in some climates).

    7. Must be able to tolerate being blown out of the groove and run over by the boolit in the bore. This is often what happens with fast pressure curves and sloppy boolit fit. Some lubes excel at this, others only work in "benchrest" situations where fit tolerance is less than half a thousandth. Difficult to establish a test standard for this one since it's so subjective, but a group of people testing one formula in a variety of guns can come to a consensus.

    8. Must leave consistent bore fouling, i.e. satisfy Eutectic's Consistency Of Residuals Encountered (CORE) concept. This is key to hunting accuracy and multi-temp performance. My personal standard for this is two, ten-shot groups fired in succession starting from a clean barrel compared to two more, ten-shot successive groups fired from one day to a week later with NO BARREL CLEANING. A second requirement is to be able to maintain accuracy for at least 500 rounds between major cleanings. Some lube ingredients, in my experience, cannot do this. Alox 350 is one, we think due to calcium buildup in the bore. Lubes with too much Molybdenum disulphide can have the same disadvantage. It goes without saying that the lube formula, as a single factor, must not promote lead fouling of the bore.

    9. Must not affect accuracy by "clinging" to the boolit after it exits the gun. I call it "lube jettison", and use point-blank tests where I shoot through cardboard to observe the spatter pattern, condition, and quantity. I want all the lube gone from the boolit within two full boolit revolutions post-muzzle.

    10. Must be relatively non-toxic. No Teflon or chlorine/flourine produced in decomposition, or similar hazards.

    11. Must be able to make the lube from readily obtainable ingredients, which excludes such things as must normally be purchased by the boxcar load or drum, or by special permit.

    12. As an added bonus, it would be nice if the lube were compatible with black powder as well as smokeless, even though moisture content requirements are typically contradictory.

    An important note: No lube can overcome poor fit, unsuitable boolit design, or poor loading techniques. Much of what accounts for "good" or "bad" lube formulations involves the guns and ammunition themselves, not so much the lube formula. Some lubes DO tolerate less-than-ideal conditions than others, but lube alone won't make your rifle shoot.

    **What a good lube WILL do is be transparant, in that is doesn't DETRACT from the accuracy potential that the handloader builds into a given gun/ammo system.**

    Let's hear what everyone else has established for lube testing standards, keeping in mind what you'd want if someone designed a lube to work just for you, and I'll update this list with suggestions.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 11-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.

  2. #2
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    even if y'all aren't sure what your lube requirements are.
    let us know what you do or don't like about a specific lube.
    gummy- gooey.
    hot/cold.
    what do you expect a lube to do for you [behave].
    and how you have tested it or why you changed from one lube to another.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    In #2 you mention velocity but not pressure.
    Many even most lubes will begin to break down at about 50% of the pressure used in modern cartridge factory ammo and some much sooner than that.. Few will make 75% but most lead alloys are not able to handle it either.
    Since you are calling this an extream lube wouldnt it have to handle extream pressures as well as moderate pressures?
    If so that will eliminate many animal and vegatable ingrediance being used in lube making.

  4. #4
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    I want the following

    - wide temp range without cold starts or lube purging. 0 to 100 F would be nice
    - easy to store bullets that are lubed, not so soft is gets all over everything
    - easy to make from readily available ingredients
    - useful over wide range of applications. I shoot lots of handgun and sub 2K velocity rifle. Must work for all that and have ability to go over 2K fps with good fit, alloy, etc

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    btroj,

    You might need to sacrifice your "easy to store" requirement to satisfy the others. A certain degree of tack is necessary for a good boolit lube. Personally, I don't find it a problem to lube just before loading.

    MJ

  6. #6
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    I don't mind some mess but overly gooey would be a problem. I bulk pack Felix lubed bullets, those lubed with Bens Red, and with MML. None of those is a very hard lube.

    I just like to cast and lube when I can. I store many lubed bullets and I assure you they aren't in neat little rows in a box. I just wipe off the noses if it bugs me too much.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gear

    9. Must not affect accuracy by "clinging" to the boolit after it exits the gun. I call it "lube jettison", and use point-blank tests where I shoot through cardboard to observe the spatter pattern, condition, and quantity. I want all the lube gone from the boolit within two full boolit revolutions post-muzzle.
    Gear,

    You got a high speed camera or are you just gonna scrap all the boolit lube from your cardboard lab and weigh it after each shot?

    But seriously, soft and tacky with a high melt temp is good. A 160F melt temp gets me all weak in the knees and I would think is possible (or at least approachable) with the right amount of grease and beeswax. Heck, beeswax alone melts in the 145F neighborhood.

    MJ

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    Dan: You bring up a good point, but you have to define how "pressure" affects lube. What happens that higher gas pressures make a lube "break down'? Do we need separate definitive test requirement for pressure and velocity? Since pressure-time curve, bore diameter, and rifling angle are all closely related to "velocity", I just mentioned the velocity part rather than pressure. Plus, most of us have chronographs but not pressure trace equipment.

    The way I see it, gas pressure on the base affects lube indirectly once it's engraved. Land pressure under acceleration is the killer, as is loss of obturation, which cannot be entirely contained by lube, but is a product of balancing/maintaining powder gas pressure and having the right alloy for the job. Before the boolit is engraved, throat/neck fit and the dynamics of the boolit under starting pressure determines how much lube blows out. At high pressures, we sometimes see gas-cutting of the boolits and throat leading that happens before the boolit is corked up tightly in the bore; if lead alloy gas cuts, there isn't a wax/grease-based lube out there that can resist. In other words, I don't think a lube can be made hard enough to make much difference to the pressure in that instance. I mentioned velocity because the acceleration required to achieve high velocity is really tough on the leading edge of the engraves along the sides of the boolit, and the lube has to do it's job there by maintaining a film barrier so the lead doesn't abrade and open up trailing edge leaks. I intended to imply that pressure, because it's needed to make velocity, is part of #2.

    Brad, I'll add the part about the ingredient list. Most of the stuff I'm working toward is soft by the NRA standards, but not impossibly soft or sticky, either. I'd just use straight grease if it were practical!

    MJ, you laugh, but I actually use waxed paper over the cardboard sometimes to recover and weigh the amount of lube. I've come close to 90% recovery levels with some lubes, with the remainder being lost as smoke.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 10-31-2012 at 09:48 PM.

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    My requirements:

    I want 1inch or better groups at 100 yards anytime I choose to do it at the speed I choose to do it.


    I want the cartridge design, gun strength and the laws of physics to be the "limiting" factors.


    I want the nut behind the bolt to be the "unknown" factor of the day and nothing else.

    I am actually pretty close to where I wanna be, but if the world was perfect......oh well I would "tweak" a few things.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master HARRYMPOPE's Avatar
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    I have shot my 30 BR in to SUB 1/2 MOA @ 1900 with NRA 50-50 --RCBS Green--Lee Liq Alox--LBt Blue--even Darr #2.In temps from 20deg to about 95 deg.Cant say i could draw a clear conclusion accuracy wise to lube formula's one way or the other.if it was hot it needed to be shot slower and if cold i had to fire more sighters to warm it up.Sometimes in hot summer maches a bit of lube smeared on the nose seems to help.(other times not?)

    George

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    George, that's exactly why we're looking for something better, for times when we don't have the luxury of burning a few into the berm and taking our "money shot" right after that while the barrel is at optimum temperature. This whole mess got started because a few of us kept finding we had to tweak our particular favorite lubes to meet seasonal demands. One of us here (you know who you are!) still uses the old NRA lube (vaseline, beeswax, paraffin) and does better than most of us ever will. Thing is, if he comes to Texas in the summer he's screwed, that lube won't hold up for beans in the heat.

    Mike, I do believe you have the short version covered. I'll let you know when we have a formula perfected!

    Gear

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    MJ, you laugh, but I actually use waxed paper over the cardboard sometimes to recover and weigh the amount of lube. I've come close to 90% recovery levels with some lubes, with the remainder being lost as smoke.

    Gear
    Gear,

    I am impressed by your dedication to the subject. Can you prove one way or the other that there is a correlation between accuracy and "lube jettison"? I would think the only way "lube jettison" (as you put it) would negatively affect accuracy would be if the lube "jettisoned" from only one side of the boolit thus creating an unbalanced situation. Normally lube accounts for less than 1/2% of the payload anyway, so it's hard to imagine that a variance in the amount of remaining lube would have any effect in accuracy at 100 yards. Are you testing at extreme ranges?

    MJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post

    Mike, I do believe you have the short version covered.

    Gear
    You been talking to my wife? Or is Google Earth getting that good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin Junky View Post
    Gear,

    I am impressed by your dedication to the subject. Can you prove one way or the other that there is a correlation between accuracy and "lube jettison"? I would think the only way "lube jettison" (as you put it) would negatively affect accuracy would be if the lube "jettisoned" from only one side of the boolit thus creating an unbalanced situation. Normally lube accounts for less than 1/2% of the payload anyway, so it's hard to imagine that a variance in the amount of remaining lube would have any effect in accuracy at 100 yards. Are you testing at extreme ranges?

    MJ
    If it didn't matter I wouldn't be concerned about it Several 100-yard "patterns" with flecks of lube on the target showed me that some time ago. IIRC the groups were off by 1-2" from the norm. A little less sticky and more slicky and the problem went away and groups returned. This was the very first thing I learned about shooting Felix lube in the wintertime without tweaking it some for my purposes.

    Interestingly, I also learned that the same winter formula won't shoot in the heat, groups start showing lots of flyers. Not blown groups per se, but definite frequent flyers. Too much slicky. So back to the regular version and problem fixed again, at least until the next cold spell. Believe it or not, we're not making this stuff up just to add to the challenge.

    Gear

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    Dedicated!! That you are. Maybe even obsessed. I really have little to add to what your doing that could improve on your work.
    My point was that some of the organics will break down at high pressure. What does break down mean. Well I am not sure what a sientific explenation would be but as best as I can tell it is when the ingrediants loose the quality that they were included for.
    In some cases they burn and cause increased smoke and fouling.
    Since most booliters will not go anywhere near top safe pressure even for lever guns let alone bolt guns my point carries little weight.
    In my mind or understanding it is the base aproximately 1/3 of a boolits bearing length that is the criticle area effected by pressure. I am referring to after the boolit has fully entered the bore and is sealed. The pressure on the sides of the base 1/3 of the boolit should be equal to the pressure at the base/bottom. This would be the portion of a boolit that will under go the most severe obturation. The base apx. 1/3 bearing will be exerting an apx. equal pressure against the interior barrel surface and so friction at this point is the highest. That increased friction at higher pressure is where the issue lies.
    That is why the non slick lubes work better at lower pressure and the really slick lubes seem to not do best until the higher pressures are reached.
    I think some of the testing I have been reading here proove this idea.
    I am thinking of the one I just recently read about a test with a 22 hornet at 2600 fps and another low pressure cartridge in a pitted bore. I dont remember all the details but the idea I got was it was not compairing apples to apples as far as pressure goes.
    To say a very slick lube is not good because it didnt give great performance in a cartridge that at top pressure for the cartridge is only in the 20'000 psi area may be missing something. Put the same lube in a cartridge like in this case a 22 hornet with a 48gn boolit at 2600 fps and that lube will act differently. That change in pressure that would have been at least doubled needed the greater lubricity. Add another 10'000 psi and it would need to be greater still.
    In reality maybe about 1% of people shooting boolits will ever even try to go there that considering the upper end of extreem pressure in your extreem lube is a moot point.
    I am in the 1% but feel I have that part covered.
    Its has been fun rambling on my thoughts and I thank you for the opertunity.

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    it's where and when that 1/2% is located that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    That is why the non slick lubes work better at lower pressure and the really slick lubes seem to not do best until the higher pressures are reached.
    I think some of the testing I have been reading here proove this idea.
    I am thinking of the one I just recently read about a test with a 22 hornet at 2600 fps and another low pressure cartridge in a pitted bore. I dont remember all the details but the idea I got was it was not compairing apples to apples as far as pressure goes.
    You bring up a great point Dan..... But this 'point' is singular in the many points that have to be looked at for a real "Extreme Lube"

    Please look at Gear's very thorough listing of numbered items at the beginning. #3 in particular....

    As the above guns (test mules) are mine let me explain with more clarity what was going on. The EsterBee formulation I was testing was a little 'slick' but it was as clean a lube as I think I have ever shot! The 2 stroke Polyolester based oil in the formulation burns it seems along with a lot of RESIDUALS of other components.

    I have six? maybe a couple more gun and load variations going in my lube testing. Every gun/load choice is picked to test a particular 'point' along with an overall opinion of the lube in general on all 'points'.

    The .22 Hornet shouldn't shoot the soft boolit at 2600fps but it does. It likes EsterBee with 2% Carnauba the best. Only three lubes in all my tests pass this gun/load combo. ALL didn't lead but ALL didn't group either! It is also my highest pressure (test mule) although the .414 Super is about the same at around 35,000psi.

    The old .38-40 Model 92 has a good bore considering an early life of black powder and corrosive primers. But it does have pits and it can shoot groups; groups so good I hate to post pictures of them! My (hunting and test) load is the old WHV factory equivalent of 1800fps with a 180gr boolit. Probably 20,000 to 23,000psi.

    This .38-40 HATES the very same lube mentioned above that my Hornet loves!
    No leading.... extremely clean bore..... but double group size.

    Yet the Polybutene Felix I now test will shoot to the FULL ability of the gun/load combination in either gun!.

    So my 'point' compared between these two guns with one particular lube was actually a comparison of what I have tagged C.O.R.E. or "Consistency of Residuals Encountered".

    So 'apples to apples' is kinda close..... But CORE to CORE was actually what I was looking at.

    Eutectic

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Believe it or not, we're not making this stuff up just to add to the challenge.

    Gear
    No, I'm not insinuating you're making anything up. I've gotta assume you have a lot of "miles" on a single test platform though.

    I need to get busy with my '06 and C311-170-RF. I've been alternating my time lately between work and being brutalized by my 444 carbine with iron sights.

    MJ

  19. #19
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    I'd like a Glow in the Dark feature so I could watch it fly like the lighted nock arra's on TV...
    I am ONLY responsible for what I Say!
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    [QUOTE=runfiverun;1902221]it's where and when that 1/2% is located that matters.[/QUOTE
    Are you refering to temperature or temperature extreems?
    My testing temps were from as low as -50 but mostly -30 up to about +80.
    I didnt have the means to test really hot temps.
    Something I did learn was that humidity plays a role in how lube works as well hot or cold.
    Truth is you fellas are way over my head and any tidbit I may inject will only be to maybe add a facet of thought to help you come to your conclusions. I am sure you would end up there with zero input from me anyway.
    I am not an educated man so am of no help in that regard but I do shoot a lot of boolits and that has been and is an education for me.
    I have seen many different lube formula described here at CB and most of the time the users claim for promoting its use was zero leading. I have to chuckle at that because there is so much more to it than just no leading.
    Turn up the pressure and the field thins quickly. I have not used polybutene or ever even heard of it until now so am watching what your doing there. For me at the high pressures only the synthetic esters have held up. For carriers I am leaning toward highly refined micro christalin waxes with a very high saturation percentage.
    As for plant waxes as additives in my experiance only carnauba can stand the pressure.
    I know I seem to keep harping on the high pressure thingy but its because that is where my interest is. Most of my shooting of boolits is geared to hunting so I want full pressure loads. By full pressure I mean anything over 75% of allowable pressure for the cartridge.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check