tell me about lubes????

[mainiac]

Ive been shooting the felix lube for my cast bullets now for quite a while and have been happy. Have been shooting alot of black powder lately, since a aquired a t/c cherokee in .32 cal. This is what has me wondering about lubes. With the smoke pole, i settled on a load that will shoot groups of about .550-.600 inch @ 25 yards, which to me is exellent ( i think the open sights are the only thing limiting this gun from shooting in 1 hole!) Anyways, the gun will only do it with t/c bore butter for the patch lube. Two of my homemade lubes (beeswax, olive oil,crisco etc.) will only shoot about 2 inches, and the plain ol spit patch no better. This has been eye opening for me, because i know its the lube making all the difference. Didnt really know a lube could be so critical as far as accuracy is concerned. Now i am wondering if i should be changing my regular center fire lubes to find something better. The felix has never given me any leading problems, so ive always been happy with it. Guess what i want to know is, have you fellers ever done alot of experimenting with emphisis on accuracy? Or is this .32 front loader just extremely fussy about the subject? I spent 2 days working the load on the smoke pole, to get where im at. Remines me of when i worked up a load for my bench guns, come to think on it,,,,,,, NO WONDER I DRINK SO MUCH!

[felix]

Mainiac, first off, you should not have to work up a load for your bench guns. Only fine tuning when necessary, like after every outing. The loads should be standard, and if not, something is amiss with the gun, or not on par with the others on the line. Secondly, working with lube is no different than working up a load. Very application dependent. Most of us shoot cast out of guns with no concrete standards, except those instituted by lawyers (thank goodness they don't play with bench guns). Military guns especially, need really good workups for the most part. After the boolit fits, then the load should be as standard as possible for that kind of gun, and then work on the lube to hone in the accuracy. Black powder has its own ball game in its very own ball park, perhaps in another country. ... felix

[mainiac]

The bench guns i was refering to was for i.b.s. hunter class. The last one i settled on was the .30 aardvark. Spent a long time on this one. As you may know, it is based on the special federal 30-30 case with the small primer pocket. These things go for 2.50-3.00 bucks a piece now!!!! With this thing, i did a ton of load work up, exspecially when i went to standard 30-30 cases,with the large primer, all of a sudden my guns didnt shoot so well. Back to the drawing board again, more powder,less powder, jamming bullets,jumping bullets, you know the routine. Funny,with a good 6ppc, you can load dog turds,with the bullet backwards,and it will still shoot. Sadly,i think my br days are behind me. Dont care for the compition no more,and the cost has gone threw the roof. Now i find myself enjoying the cast bullet guns, open sights,and no pressure to perform, just relaxation! Dont know what direction to take with lube experimenting, even if i choose to get that serious with it.

[Newtire]

Hi mainiac,

I used different kinds of lubes on roundball patches & finally settled on Ox-yoke wonder patches. I used alot of different patch thicknesses & such but finally settled on the Wonder Patches as they kept the bore clean for over 70 shots one day shooting my Grandpa's old .38 target rifle. I think it's the ball size has alot to do with it just like with cast.

If you are looking to try something other than Felix-Lube in your smokeless loads, the Lars or Bullshop lubes maybe would be the way to go. I have had luck with Lars & my version of Felix-Lube about the same. Let us know if you can beat them!

[44man]

Newtire is right but you will find each will work the same for smokeless. I stick with Felix and Lar's Carnauba Red. Haven't tried the Bullshop yet but these lubes shoot the best groups. Both outshoot LBT Blue and anything else on the market. LBT magnum lube shoots great too.
A smoke pole is far different and the smallest change in ball diameter, patch thickness or lube will effect groups. Patch thickness difference as small as a cigarette paper can open or tighten groups as can the amount and type of lube. Young Country lube has been the best all around for me but denim with Ballistol equals it. I mix 7 parts water with 1 part Ballistol and soak the patch material. Spread it out and let the patches dry. A change of 1 or 2 parts water will change groups and all must be tested to see what amount works best in your rifle.
In general, most guys use a ball too small or too thin a patch to make a muzzle loader shoot. TC started this trend with .440, .490 and .530 balls recommended when .445, .495, .535 and balls up to bore size shoot best.
Bore butter and Wonder lube have shot good groups for me but I don't like the way it dries out. And it gets hard in the cold.
Store bought patches can vary in thickness even with the same number on the package. Lube is a toss up on them too. Some of it is junk!
If a muzzle loader is shot a lot, the bore gets super polished from the patches and groups will open. The bore can be fixed. Chrome plated bores won't group either.
I am not happy with groups over 1/4" to 1/2" at 50 yd's for 5 shots. You can do it but don't depend on a lube change correcting something else that is wrong. Bore butter should work to refine your groups before trying another lube.

[Bass Ackward]

Maniac,

If you are about to start testing lube, you have the right name for it.

You can make just about anything work or fail if you play with all the variables. Where most guys test lubes is simply to swap lube. Then with one standard bullet hardness shot at one pressure range, they either curse or fall in love.

I'd say, Felix has it right. I'll add that all lube is a fouling. The way you shoot and clean and the bullet design chosen establishes whether or not that fouling is an aid .... or a hindrance.

In the end, regardless of all the variables, the secret appears to be, to have just enough lube to create a repeatable shot to shot balance. That balance includes both on the bullet and remaining in the bore, with just enough lubricative properties to prevent galling at the operating pressure range and temperature of interest.

Good luck.

[Newtire]

I might add that that rifle would not shoot into a decent group until I freshened out the rifling using a little cutter imbedded into a dowel that my machine shop instructor told me how to make. Cleaned out about 100 yrs of rust in the grooves.

[mainiac]

bass, think your right about just anuff lube. I have a 358156 mold that is my most accurate .35 bullet, and it measures about .363 in diameter. As you know,this bullet doesnt have deep lube grooves to start with, and when i squeeze it threw a .358 sizer the grooves almost disappear. No matter though, it still is my best shooting .35 bullet, and even through my rifle barrells at 1600 f.p.s., there seems to be anuff lube,I get practically zero leading. I have a few keith molds as well, and with the deep grooves, that extra lube isnt even being used.

[Trapshooter]

There is a fellow, Dutch Schoultz, (http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com) who has a pretty good black powder accuracy system, a well tested method to develop the best load and lube for a particular muzzle loader. I think it was primarily developed for target shooting, but the method is valid for developing loads for other (hunting) applications. It got me from rookie to pretty good in a pretty short time. I have no interest in his enterprise, I am just a satisfied user, impressed with his method.

Trapshooter

[mainiac]

Newtire is right but you will find each will work the same for smokeless. I stick with Felix and Lar's Carnauba Red. Haven't tried the Bullshop yet but these lubes shoot the best groups. Both outshoot LBT Blue and anything else on the market. LBT magnum lube shoots great too.
A smoke pole is far different and the smallest change in ball diameter, patch thickness or lube will effect groups. Patch thickness difference as small as a cigarette paper can open or tighten groups as can the amount and type of lube. Young Country lube has been the best all around for me but denim with Ballistol equals it. I mix 7 parts water with 1 part Ballistol and soak the patch material. Spread it out and let the patches dry. A change of 1 or 2 parts water will change groups and all must be tested to see what amount works best in your rifle.
In general, most guys use a ball too small or too thin a patch to make a muzzle loader shoot. TC started this trend with .440, .490 and .530 balls recommended when .445, .495, .535 and balls up to bore size shoot best.
Bore butter and Wonder lube have shot good groups for me but I don't like the way it dries out. And it gets hard in the cold.
Store bought patches can vary in thickness even with the same number on the package. Lube is a toss up on them too. Some of it is junk!
If a muzzle loader is shot a lot, the bore gets super polished from the patches and groups will open. The bore can be fixed. Chrome plated bores won't group either.
I am not happy with groups over 1/4" to 1/2" at 50 yd's for 5 shots. You can do it but don't depend on a lube change correcting something else that is wrong. Bore butter should work to refine your groups before trying another lube.

Cant even imagine how to shoot .250 groups @ 50 yards with open sights. What kind of target are you using,or are you using apeture sights, or maybe scope? Having fired thousands of round in br guns, (years back) I am aware of shooting .100-.200 groups @100 yds, and 200yds, but, that is with a reliable 36x scope,that wont let you down. As i mentioned, .500 groups is all i can muster, because i cant exactly see my precise aiming point with the open sights. As a side note, i cant beleave how much the wind pushes this little 46 grain round-ball.

[joeb33050]

. Guess what i want to know is, have you fellers ever done alot of experimenting with emphisis on accuracy? Or is this .32 front loader just extremely fussy about the subject? I spent 2 days working the load on the smoke pole, to get where im at. Remines me of when i worked up a load for my bench guns, come to think on it,,,,,,, NO WONDER I DRINK SO MUCH!

I know little about ML guns, just beginning. Neastsfoot oil/Murphy's oil soap on the patch work just fine for me, thanks to twotoescharlie-I think.
For CF rifles, I haven't seen any evidence that any within a broad spectrum of lubes works better than others. See the CBA equipment lists, see the many lubes used by very accurate shooters, and that there is no agreement on one or even a few lubes.
I am very interested in any evidence showing that one reasonable CF lube gives superior accuracy to another, let that "other" be the NRA Alox formula.
Much talk and opinion, little data.
joe brennan

[357maximum]

For CF rifles, I haven't seen any evidence that any within a broad spectrum of lubes works better than others. See the CBA equipment lists, see the many lubes used by very accurate shooters, and that there is no agreement on one or even a few lubes.
I am very interested in any evidence showing that one reasonable CF lube gives superior accuracy to another, let that "other" be the NRA Alox formula.
Much talk and opinion, little data.
joe brennan

You have just pointed out the data you seek, you are having trouble iterpretting it is all. All rifle/load/boolit combinations will have a "SWEET" spot, if you are willing to and have the drive to look.

It is all what one seeks, if non leading rounds that hold 1inch plus groups at slow speeds is all you seek that is all ye shall find.

Toe jam will prevent leading in a good boolit to gun fit...

[44man]

Thats with open sights with home made guns. I searched all over and these are the only targets I have left after cleaning out the thousands I had laying around.
The right target is 100 yd's.

[joeb33050]

You have just pointed out the data you seek, you are having trouble iterpretting it is all. All rifle/load/boolit combinations will have a "SWEET" spot, if you are willing to and have the drive to look.

If you're saying that each rifle/bullet combination needs a unique load and/or lube to show it's best accuracy; I disagree and ask if you have any evidence that that is true. I know of no evidence that, within reason, any lube is better than any other-CF smokeless rifles. (I know little about BPCR and SPG and Dan Theodore's lube etc.)


It is all what one seeks, if non leading rounds that hold 1inch plus groups at slow speeds is all you seek that is all ye shall find.


Non-leading rifle 100 yard 5 shot groups, average of four (or five) groups. Sounds like the CBA Nationals, where the average average has been ~1" for ~5 years-maybe before then.
Any gun that can average 1" 100 yard 5 shots, 5 groups- 2 groups in a 15 minute relay, is doing very well. If the gun and shooter can average 1", they're competitive with the CBA wizards. Fast or slow-doesn't matter.



Toe jam will prevent leading in a good boolit to gun fit...

I wouldn't know.

Probably, within reason, the lube just doesn't matter.
joe brennan

[357maximum]

Probably, within reason, the lube just doesn't matter.
joe brennan

[mainiac]

44 man, my hats off to you. With open sights,i just cant hold to the exact spot, and my accuracy suffers.

[**oneshot**]

I just posted this in the shooters section. It amazed me that changing brass would work, but it did the trick for my revolver/load combo. I forgot to mention on the original post that I changed lubes (all homemade) 3 times during the process.

I have a .308 Encore that will shoot J-bullets into one clustered hole at 100yds. It took me along time and alot of shooting to get the right combo for that. Granted it would shoot sub moa or close to it with alot if combo's but I wanted better.

Keep playing to get what you want from it.



I am new to casting and new to a 41magnum revolver. I have been playing around trying to find the right combo. I changed powder charges, powders, and primers, but wasn't quite happy with the results. I was looking to buy yet another powder and try the tests again. I also thought I'd buy more brass since i was there, they didn't carry the brass I was using so I picked up some Winchester brass instead.

I never had to open the new can of powder. I figured I'd work up a load with the new brass and existing powder (to use it up) to see where it was at. If I had a digital camera I'd post the groups I shot. 4 different powder charges, 1 cylinder of bullets each, All grouped into a nice cluster of bullet holes "one large green SPLAT" on my shootnsee targets. three of the targets looked like only 3-4 bullets were fired at it. I reloaded the same brass and tried it again just to rule out the "new brass" effect and did it all over again. Same result, with one flyer that I think was me. Granted these groups were only shot at 20yards but heck I'm a happy camper after that. I'm loading more to shoot at longer range, just can't seem to figure which charge grouped the best.

Lesson learned, Don't settle for good shooting boolits when you can work to excellent accuracy.

[44man]

Oneshot, thats the reason I never shoot less then 50 yd's with revolvers. It is just too hard to see a difference between loads when shooting closer. When I back off, a slight change will show up big time even when it makes a tiny cluster at close range.