Need a low recoil load for 500 S&W Lee 440

[happy7]

I shot some loads today with nine grains of Trailboss with the Lee 440. I did not shoot for accuracy although we hit what we were aiming at plinking at cans, but they were very comfortable to shoot both for my uncle and my 12 year old. It is the first time he has fired the pistol as well. Thanks for the suggestions guys.

[dmftoy1]

I use the trailboss and the titegroup for my lighter loads. I'd say the trailboss is the more mellow of the two and I feel more comfortable loading it because it would be an obvious double charge whereas I think I could get myself in trouble with the titegroup. That being said, the titegroup has been very accurate out of my 4 inch Model 500.

For the people who ask why you'd want to shoot low power loads out of the model 500, the best way I can explain it would be to have you come out and shoot at some of the IPSC swinging silhoutte's I've got setup for "high velocity" loads. You hit them with a .223 and they swing . .you hit them with a .45 automatic and they swing . . . . you hit them with the .50 (even low velocity) and they do the loop-the-loop. I don't know how many times I've done it and it still doesn't get old. I'm sitting here smiling like a school boy just thinking of it. (same with the .45-70 and heavy boolits moving slow)

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

[twoworms]

T777 is a blast to shoot. Hackleback and I fired a few rounds at the range one day and about everyone there stopped by to see what all the smoke was about...

Tim

[rugerman1]

Lyman makes a nice looking 375gr SWC plain based boolit for the 500 S&W.Combined with Trail Boss,makes a nice plinker.

[Hackleback]

Light loads: Just because you own a Ferrari dosent mean you have to drive 200 mph all the time.

[PPpastordon]

Just a little more on "light" loads.
Everyone knows a 7 1/2" barreled .44 Magnum can drive a 240 grain bullet to well over 1200 fps. However, time and time I read of people finding the old 240 to 250 grain bullet does a beautiful job at hunting deer and black bear - and sometimes larger game.
The 240 grain pushed to 1,000 fps velocity in the .44 special was, and is, a good hunting load.
I know a .45 bullet is a larger diameter, but in talks with John Linebaugh he has praised the 250 grain .45 Colt at 900 fps. Many other have also praised this load.
A 300 grain .45 Colt load at 750 fps is, to me, a many times proven deer load. It is also very easy shooting.
At 900 fps in my .44 Magnum, the RCBS 250-K is an easy shooting load for me, my wife, my children and most of my grandchildren. Yet, I have always known I can get more punch from my .44 Magnum if I so desire.
In short, I like a load that we can all enjoy! Why should I (or anyone else) be limited to a caliber that is more - uh - limited?

[JohnSmiles]

Interesting thread, especially as I just bought a Handi in 500.
But I have to chime in here and state that claiming a 44 mag has more ANYTHING at 500 yards than a 475 or a 500 is simply wrong.
The best you could do is state that CERTAIN 44 mags can outperform CERTAIN larger caliber rounds, which is true for almost any rounds anyway.
Full house .17's can outdo 44 mag squib loads, in that scenario.
But there is no magic in the 44 that gives it extra anything at 500 yards over the bigger and badder rounds.

[leftiye]

Well John, Welcome aboard. I was expecting something like that much earlier. How about "can you hit anything with your gun what with all of that recoil?" More isn't always better. Why do you think they waited over a hundred years after smokeless powder was developed to make those monsters? Maybe because it took that long for common sense to fail?

The only factual response so far forgot the essential detail of Ballistic coefficient and set it as equal in both calibers. It is exactly because the 44 caliber has much better ballistic coefficients that I am saying what I'm saying. It may not hit quite as hard as a .50 at 500 yards, but it hits surprisingly close to as hard. And ft/lbs of KE isn't everything. Couple that with possibly being a little more manageable, flatshooting,and therefore maybe more accurate, and I'll chose the .445, thank you. That's unless you want to try to rule out bullet placement as being important. (?)

I'm not trying to say that the .44 out guns all of the larger calibers. All I'm saying is that in an all around consideration involving retained energy, and velocity; coupled with shootability etc., the best choice may not always be the biggest and baddest for an all around hunting handgun. That's why I chose to focus on long range, because that's specifically the weak spot for hunting handguns (except those using rifle cartridges, and those are smaller bore still). Just as most of the threads for many .45 cal rifles here with cast are overwhelmingly not full house loads, there's a reason for that. They don't want the bruises, hurt knuckles and wrists, and etc.

Now at 10 yards with a charging ewe sheep, (or a grizzly) there's no doubt the 50 is a better knockdown cartridge, especially IF you can hit anything with it.

[PPpastordon]

Interesting thread, especially as I just bought a Handi in 500.
But I have to chime in here and state that claiming a 44 mag has more ANYTHING at 500 yards than a 475 or a 500 is simply wrong.

John;
First of all, "Hi, neighbor!"
Second, Don't know if your statements are directed at my lines. However, I agree with what you say. I am just saying that a .44 Mag, or a .500 for that matter, does not have to be fired at full maximum power loads to be a revolver that is useful. Even a .500 S&W can have versatility - just as my old .50-70-750 Contender was versatile with loads from 320 cast to 750 FMJ's; both as accurate as I can shoot and with the 320's even as low in velocity as the 750's.
BTW; my friend told me he saw a post somewhere that called the .500 in a rifle something like "A modern cartridge as versatile as the old .50-70."
We should get together sometime. I am just south of you in Crawfordsville.

[PPpastordon]

JohnSmiles;
Tried to e-mail, but it was instantly returned.

[twoworms]

Rugarman,

The 375gr SWC looks like a great boolit, I'll have to get a mold someday for my little gun that I plink with. Got to love em the big hunk of lead.

Tim

[dubber123]

Not to stir the pot any more, but I'm pretty sure the ballistic coefficient is higher in a 440+ grain 50 than a 300 gr. 44. Higher BC + Higher initial velocity should equal flatter trajectory and retained energy would it not?

[leftiye]

Dubber, you might be right, why don't you look it up. If you read all of the posts you would see that I'm thinking of maybe a 300 gr Horny XTP @ up to 1750 fps in the .445 Supermag (higher initial velocity?), and there are better BC's than that in .44 bullets. I know that the original post said .44 mag, and I'm not sure why I said that, but the point was to illustrate the advantage of higher ballistic coefficient and smaller bore over bigger bore WFNs. Whatever else gets said here, those don't range worth a d@**.

[dubber123]

I was going by twoworms response # 16 in here, which lists a Lee 310 gr at BC .218, and the Lee 440 at .296. I don't know what a 300 XTP BC's at, due to the pointier nose, or if the extra weight and length of the Lee makes up for it in the BC dept. Just going by the two #'s given, trajectory ought to be about the same, but theres an extra 140 gr.+ payload with one of them. I've never shot past 300 yds. with a WFN, and can see your point on the long range characteristics being crappy with that design, but they make pointy bullets for the big boys too. I'm not beating the drum for the .500, the only one I have experience with, (pretty extensive), I can say is total junk and I won't own one.

[JohnSmiles]

First and foremost, for any statements to hold ANY merit, the bullets would have to be of similar bc to establish anything.
Comparing a 44 with a better bc to a 500 with a flat nose is meaningless.
Apples and oranges.
The original statement was incorrect, and that is why I commented on it.
A .454, or .445 has some very good ballistics for handguns, but the 44 is so outclassed it isn't funny.
You can only shove so much powder in a .44 casing.
No rocket scientist here, but I do know my 'goes-inta's'.

And Hornady now has a rather impressive offering in the .500.

10" test barrel
Muzzle - 2075/2868
50 - 1885/2366
100 - 1706/1939



No idea why my email would turn up invalid.
johnsmiles1961@insightbb.com

My webpage is http://www.johncthiel.com
Be warned, my views are not for the faint of heart, and they are expressed their.

[leftiye]

John, When you get a boolit with a B.C. like the .44 cal. 350 grain hand swaged spire point with the whole ogive being exposed lead (reads WILL expand) that I make, then we'll talk.

I totally reject your contention that B.C.'s must be matched to make comparison. Actually, a comparison of ctg statistics was not what I intended. The original post clearly mentioned WFNs out of the larger bores as compared to such as the above spire point. No one cares how many mack trucks worth of energy you have if it all goes away so fast that you think it was a mirage. This of course happens just prior to losing all stability and accuracy. What you can't hit doesn't care much what you shot AT it! The post was only typed to make the comparison with the 50 gallon drum shaped hard cast boolits fired ahead of 50,000 psi. loads as an absurd creation in the least.

[JohnSmiles]

John, When you get a boolit with a B.C. like the .44 cal. 350 grain hand swaged spire point with the whole ogive being exposed lead (reads WILL expand) that I make, then we'll talk.

I totally reject your contention that B.C.'s must be matched to make comparison. Actually, a comparison of ctg statistics was not what I intended. The original post clearly mentioned WFNs out of the larger bores as compared to such as the above spire point. No one cares how many mack trucks worth of energy you have if it all goes away so fast that you think it was a mirage. This of course happens just prior to losing all stability and accuracy. What you can't hit doesn't care much what you shot AT it! The post was only typed to make the comparison with the 50 gallon drum shaped hard cast boolits fired ahead of 50,000 psi. loads as an absurd creation in the least.

Dude, you just admitted in a previous post you did not really mean 44 magnum.

And actually I'm thinking more of a .445 Supermag, though I know I said .44

Now here you are, defending it again, 'rejecting' my contention, and basically telling me that I don't have a clue compared to your wealth of knowledge, and to come back if and when I attain your omnipotent level of ballistic knowledge. . .


I am not a newbie to reloading, and I do have a fair working knowledge of the ballistics involved in shooting.
Your original statement about 44's was off base and you know it.
Now you are throwing in handmade spire points in .44, yet if you go with a 475-500 gr of similar spire point design in .500, your comparison will still put the .44 to shame.
Apples and oranges.
Your original statement:

The point being that a 500 S&W (not hammering your peestola Happy7) and the larger linebaughs, etc. won't hit as hard as a 44 mag at 500 yds.

And THAT is incorrect, period.
A certain HOT .44 mag load with a better bc may hit harder than a certain less-than-fullhouse .500 load wadcutter at 500 yards, and that is as close as it ever gets.
As my FIRST reply to you clearly stated.
All the other smokescreens you have thrown in since haven't changed that.

The original post asked for some advice on lighter loads to plink with.
A couple of you acted like it was the stupidest question you had ever heard, for some unknown reason.
It wasn't.
Almost everyone who owns the stiffer toys sooner or later develops some lighter loads to simply plink with.

There is no reason to respond in such a condescending manner, to me or to anyone else here.
It is clear you see shooting anything above .45 as the root of all that is evil and reserved only for morons and those who missed the previous 100 years of gun wisdom.
Whatever.
I have one of the big toys, and I have no intention of shooting several hundred full house loads a year just because it CAN.
My dodge ram will run 117mph before the limiter kicks in, but it has only seen that speed once.
It can run that fast, but there is no current need to do so everytime I fire it up.
This isn't an abortion site, its a SHARED KNOWLEDGE forum, where people are encouraged to ask questions and post answers.
And give some advice, not just project a 'far superior than thou' attitude.
I don't post here much, but I do read a great deal of the articles, and that seems to be the accepted standard here.
As it should be.
A .44 and a .500 are worlds apart, always will be, and its ok.
So drop it, have a beer and chill out.

[leftiye]

John, I had no intention of being "condescending." I'm sorry if you took my post that way. Still, if YOU want to shoot with one hand somthinng that develops the ME of a 30-06 and fires a 500 grain or heavier bu/oolit- well have at it! Enjoy. Knock yourself out.

.44 mag? Where? Ya know the .445 is .44 caliber too?

There may even be someone out there who could shoot such a thang and also hit something. I'm not even going to try. And yes, as I said earlier, I do load my .454 down to .44mag levels, and no I don't disparage loading down thangs that kick so hard that they HURT, duh.

Abortion site? So who's loosing their cool here? I'm done.

[JohnSmiles]

John, I had no intention of being "condescending." I'm sorry if you took my post that way. Still, if YOU want to shoot with one hand somthinng that develops the ME of a 30-06 and fires a 500 grain or heavier bu/oolit- well have at it! Enjoy. Knock yourself out.

#1. I have a .500 Handi-Rifle.
#2. I have never shot it one handed.
#3. I hunt with a scoped Redhawk in .44 mag, and do not much care for shooting full house loads past 265 grains myself.
#4. Full house loads, even in the Handi Rifle, leaves bruises.
I discovered this after my first 40 round session. . . .

.44 mag? Where? Ya know the .445 is .44 caliber too?

. . .here

I know that the original post said .44 mag, and I'm not sure why I said that. . . .

. . .here

The point being that a 500 S&W (not hammering your peestola Happy7) and the larger linebaughs, etc. won't hit as hard as a 44 mag at 500 yds..

. . here

That's why for personal protection I prefer a .45 Colt or ACP to a 44 mag. They do almost as much damage, and don't kill five bystanders down the street.

You were clearly talking about a .44 magnum.

There may even be someone out there who could shoot such a thang and also hit something. I'm not even going to try. And yes, as I said earlier, I do load my .454 down to .44mag levels, and no I don't disparage loading down thangs that kick so hard that they HURT, duh.

I have no use for a .500 handgun period.
I wouldn't pass up shooting one at the range of course . .
However, porting them tames the recoil down a bit, and they are no less accurate than any other gun.
They simply require more discipline to be as effective as they are capable of.
A .22 is easier to be accurate with than a .500 for the average guy.
People who buy .500 cal revolvers are most generally NOT average guys.
And devote a lot of time and money into becoming proficient with their $800-$1200 deer gun.

[Petander]

I need a load for my 500 S&W. My 75 year old uncle wants to shoot it but at this point in his life recoil is not his thing. I could figure out something, but figured some of you have almost certainly played with this and if you have a good recommendation, I would rather use that than guess. Looking to downgrade to 44 spl type recoil. Probably will use the Lee 440 grain boolit.

I have a "plinker" 500 S&W load for 350 Hornady. My wife and some other females like to shoot it with the S&W 500 long barreled ported revolver, it´s not bad at all. Much milder than, say, an SBH with a medium load. I sold my SBH because the 500 is such a pleasure to shoot - over-the-top -loads aside, obviously. I get better long range accuracy with the 500, another reason to give up on 44. 500 can do everything that my 10" 44 was able to do. Model 500 can also handle some crazy stuff which I´m not gonna publish here.


Back to my 350 "plinker" load:

It uses 51 grains of Vihtavuori N120 and it chronoes around 1500 fps depending on the seating depth which is critical, mine is 2.100". With this slow a powder it´s quite easy to "load down" , this is about the lightest load that I´ve used on a 500 though. Otherwise the fired brass gets smoked on the outside pretty bad because of too little pressure. You can only load down so much.


As a comparision, I use (a very nice fitting) 420 LBT boolit with 48 grains of N120 and it goes 1700 fps. A faster powder like N110 gives a sharper recoil at a given bullet/velocity -combo. I shoot that 450 grain Lee with 35 grains of N110 and it´s quite powerful at 1550 fps. I have no mild load for the 450, it seems.

EDIT:

If I needed a mild load for that Lee boolit (mine drops at 450) I´d try some 38 grains of Vihtavuori N120 to start with. Based on my Quick Load memos it should be around 1300 fps with similar pressures to my 350 load. But it will obviously recoil more than the 350, although the recoil is "slower" , so to speak. A 450 bullet from any handgun will not be exactly low recoil.



Hope this helps. While on topic, I may get another light mold for plinkers, 500 is a dream to cast for anyway.