Need Help: Teaching proper sight alignment

[PS Paul]

Hi, fellas. I need some helpful advice on something I have struggled with over the years and I KNOW the good folks on Castboolits can help with this.
Over the years, I have taken many new shooters out for the first time. Although we, as regular shooters, take the basics of proper iron sight alignment for granted, I have had some difficulties in teaching "what proper sight alignment should look like" to some folks. I took my daughter's 18 year-old boyfriend out with us yesterday and started him off with a .22lr single-action pistol with a hog trough sight to get started. I made a little drawing on a piece of paper to show what he should be looking for, but he still couldn't quite get it, so we switched over to a security six with mild 158 gr. SWC boolits over light bullseye charge to see if it would be easier with the adjustable blade sights.
I made a new drawing and adjusted the sights for a six o'clock hold. We brought over a pistol rest and he started to get in the black with most of the shots after I watched him for a few cylinders full.
While watching and coaching, it dawned on me the guys on the forum might be able to offer either A: some printed sight alignment "photo" of what to look for with a link making it easy for me to print, or B: maybe some "analogy" that might help explain it in terms other than what I've used.
I have seen in the past some printed tutorials on the subject, but I felt if I put it out there on the forum, I could get many different opinions/thoughts on what has worked for some of you over the years.
Ultimately, he started getting pretty decent groups for his first time out, but the light did not go "on" as quickly as I had figured, if that makes sense?

I have a knack for displaying tremendous patience and understanding, which is what it took with him. In the end, I really felt we had accomplished something, but he told me on the way home he was not picturing exactly what to look for until he started getting consistent hits.
Thanks and I will be looking forward to some great suggestions!!
Paul

[williamwaco]

I feel your pain.

I have tried that many times over many years - trying to describe it, and by drawing pictures. Seems I never have photos in my range kit.

Some people just don't get it - even with a picture.

I just can't get how they can't get it,

get it?


.

[500MAG]

This is a darn good question and I am looking forward to hearing what the guys have to say. I have the same problem with my kids. I try to tell them what to do and can't seem to get good results. I know I am a horrible teacher but I feel I am telling them the same way I was taught. At least you thought of drawing it.

[PS Paul]

I felt with all the video games kids play nowadays, that sight alignment is just second nature for them, but it ain't so!!

[OBIII]

There are tremendous variations in sight picture from gun to gun. Adj. front, adj. rear, round front post, square front post, v notch rear, square notch rear, rear peep, etc., etc.. I would suggest two handguns, say a .22 and a .38, with different type of sights, i.e. notch and square. Pictures to show what is happening with each different sight. Let them practice on one until they understand what it is that they are doing, then switch them to a different sight. Best I can suggest.

[500MAG]

At the age of 8, I was given a Daisy BB Rifle. I remember getting the tar beat out of me by my Grandfather for shooting flies off the pump house cover. The cover was fiberglass and got full of holes. When I graduated to a real gun, I had the sight thing down. You mention the video games and that may be the problem. My boys play them all day. I handed them a BB gun and they couldn't hit a tin can at 10 yards.

[Artful]

When I was teaching handgun Bullseye shooting.

I made up a stick gun with oversized sights in colored paper.
Sort of like this but with sights stuck on it.


Made up a front sight in orange and a rear sight in white then made up a target with the
Bullseye and in the Navy 6 o'clock position had in grey, the outline of what the sights should look like.



Had them hold the simulated gun out with one hand at arms length then move it until all the grey disappeared which would leave them in perfect alighment. Worked for me! Seemed to help them get a grasp on it before wasting ammo. One of my fellow instructors made his up out of some sheet cellophane stuff that he and they could see thru, he liked it but I didn't.
So to each his own.

For my wife who knows what to look at I use the laser to check her pull and follow thru for dry fire. In the old days we would take a sharpened pencil and put in the barrel of our 1911's and "shoot the wall" - put up paper with a reduced sized target on the wall and when the hammer kicked the pencil forward it would leave a dot so you could get a group indicator.



One thing I did to help the kids - taped a neco wafer over the center of the bullseye - seemed to make them improve their concentration.

I didn't teach Junior rifle but did help with friends kids - so I would say start them off with peep sight on long barrel and large target with reactive backstop.

example: balloon floating on a pond. then work it down to a large leaf then a small leaf floating on the water, then after getting 100% hits move to slow moving creek and go back up to large leaf, etc.

after they get the hang of that you can move on to reactive targets like these

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Do-Al...ts/1217809.uts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Wp-gcD6_Q

[BD]

I found that the first thing is to determine eye dominance, Then FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT! Most of time, inability to "Get" the sight picture is rooted in the failure to focus the front sight. This is primary, Alignment to the rear sight is secondary. Most first time shooters are so focused on the target that sight alignment gets lost.
BD

[PS Paul]

BD, great point! I discovered he was "left-eye dominant", but a right-handed shooter during the session. You are absolutely right about focusing on the target, which is what he tried at first until I made the front sight-focus the main focus of the lesson.

I had to repeat this-very patiently- severl times during the session.

[PS Paul]

Artful, your bullseye photo is exactly what I am looking for PLUS the info on the wafer to keep 'em interested! Perfect! I also like the idea of the cardboard gun.

We're gettin' somewhere on this......

[akajun]

Ill second the notion for starting him off with a rifle with a peep sight. Then repeating, "focus on the front sight"" the target should be blurry". coupled with a "dont jerk the trigger, add pressure till it breaks, Dont try to break a perfect shot, just concentrate on focusing your vision on the front sight as you add pressure"

When he gets that, then switch him to a pistol type leaf sight, in which you have to align the rear as well.

[PS Paul]

The only remaining peep sight rifle I've got is a model 70 in .458 win mag! LOL! Not going to do that to him.....
I do have scoped rifles and express-sighted rifles as well as buckhorn types. After this last session, he asked to shoot rifles with me, so we are going to try a scoped .22 and an old Mauser with battle-sights on it (classic ladder with v notch).
We reached a point where he did understand what I was attempting to convey, but I suppose good "visual aids" would be most helpful.

[375RUGER]

You may have to blind that left eye if he is going to shoot right handed.
If he can learn to shoot left handed even better. I've run into this quite a bit when I was helping boy scouts get their rifle and shotgun merit badges. In most instances they had been shooting with the off eye for quite some time. Putting a blinder on the dominate eye put shots in the black and earned merit badges.

Son number 1 is a lefty, but right eye dominant. He shoots right handed. Gun and bow. I knew it early and made him aware of the complications, he choose to shoot right handed.

Since he is a new shooter I suggest he put forth some serious effort to learn to shoot with the "right" hand. Or just stick with scoped guns.

I hope someone here can chime in with their personal experience with this.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

make your drawings on the pages used for overhead projectors , the clear plastic sheets with the target the front sight then the rear sight

make one for each type of sight you want to show them , they had some made up like this a few weeks ago when i took my certification to teach juniors pistol

they had some others cut from cardboard so that they could be lined up showing the proper aliment

i have also set a gun on a rest then taken a picture to show people some times just taking a picture of it then flipping the camera to view and showing them what they are doing

another trick is to use a hand mirror hold it at the end of the barrel and you will look back and see if they have the alinement correct you will see their eye and the sight

[PS Paul]

Green county, this is TERRIFIC stuff!! All 3 are ideas I never would have come up with on my own. See, I KNEW you guys wouldn't disappoint.

[Larry Gibson]

I found that the first thing is to determine eye dominance, Then FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT! Most of time, inability to "Get" the sight picture is rooted in the failure to focus the front sight. This is primary, Alignment to the rear sight is secondary. Most first time shooters are so focused on the target that sight alignment gets lost.
BD

That is exactly my experience in 40+ years instructing soldiers (male and female). Even old shooters would not really know how to focus on the front sight instead of the target. They wondered why they could only barely qualify with rifle or handgun until I made them focus on the front sight........

Larry Gibson

[PS Paul]

Thanks for all the great stuff so far, everyone! I failed to mention that at some point during all this, I handed the .22 single-action to my daughter who turned around and put 4 cylinders-full into about 3" off-hand at 20 yds. while her boyfriend was still struggling to grasp the whoe sight picture and alignment thing!! This may have made him a little "stressed"! Ha-Ha!!

So far I have several good visual aids to add to my coaching tool kit and lots of great suggestions about other teaching tools. Please, keep 'em comin!!!

[sthwestvictoria]

Today I was coincidentally looking for rifle peep sight information and came across this for the hangun:

http://www.owrpc.co.uk/Applications/ironadjust.pdf

It may be helpful.

[Moonman]

1) Establish eye dominance. You should learn to shoot with dominate eye and the dominate hand the same. If CROSS DOMINATE, you can shoot a pistol well because you can move your head over or tilt the pistol some, but will have GREAT PROBLEMS shooting a rifle and shotgun well, if much at all accurately due to the long sighting radius. There are people who NEVER DISCOVER THIS IS WHY THEY SHOOT POORLY WITH A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN.

2) FOCUS on the FRONT SIGHT. The REAR SIGHT and TARGET will be slightly out of focus, and that's OK as your eyes only focus on one thing at a time. The Front Sight is the IMPORTANT POINT OF YOUR FOCUS.

3) Shoot from a Bench Rest until the shooter has The Basics Down, (Trigger Control, Sight Alignment, Aiming, Breathing, Follow Through, etc.) and can PRODUCE A GROUP. To reduce STRESS in a new shooter, TURN A TARGET AROUND and shoot at the BLANK backside. This is LESS INTIMIDATING TO THEM.

WE DO NOT CARE WHERE THE SHOOTERS GROUP HITS THE BLANK TARGET. We only want them to be able to GROUP the HITS TOGETHER somewhere on the target.

When then can produce a group, we teach them HOW TO ADJUST THE SIGHTS TO MOVE THAT GROUP TO THE CENTER OF THE TARGET. Different types of shooting require different aiming points, ONE IS THE "SIX O'CLOCK HOLD" which is like a whole balloon sitting atop the front sight, and the "Point Of Impact" (POI) hold, where the bullet hits the point that you aim at.

YOU ADJUST THE SIGHTS IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT THE TARGET HIT TO MOVE.
If you need the the bullets to move to the RIGHT to hit the BULLSEYE, you move the sights TO THE RIGHT, if you need them to MOVE UP, Move the SIGHTS UP.

The 6 O'Clock Hold is used in "BULLSEYE" TARGET SHOOTING, and the Point Of Impact Sight (P.O.I.) Hold is used in COMBAT Type Shooting or Hunting.

An ADVANCED shooting technique after you become an accomplished shooter, is called POINT SHOOTING, but that's down the road, study and LEARN THE BASICS FIRST, and have fun.

ONE OTHER THING, DON'T START A NEW SHOOTER OUT WITH A 357 OR 44 MAGNUM JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE. RECOIL FEAR AND DEVELOPING A FLINCH IS NOT COOL AT ALL TO NEW SHOOTERS TRYING TO LEARN. PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

.22s are just fine to learn the shooting fundamentals with.

GOOD SHOOTING!!!!!!

[captaint]

You guys are right.... It ain't easy teaching new shooters, young or old. I find that more often than not we find new people grabbing & pushing the handgun, anticipating recoil and yanking the trigger. I try to tell them forget the recoil. You can't change it. It should be a surprise when the gun goes bang. If you have a revolver, it helps for instruction purposes, to leave an empty chamber somewhere in the mix and watch what happends. Hopefully, the new shooter will see what happends too... enjoy Mike