Wano Powder

[plourbag]

Here in the Land Down Under We occasionally have difficulty in getting our supplies of black powder. The most available, and therefore the most widely used, is Wano. It's also half the price of Swiss, if and when you can find it. I know from a couple of popular BP books (several years old) that Wano is available in the US although the write-ups weren't over enthusiastic (not critical, just not enthusiastic, although at the time of those publications it was a new arrival on the scene). From my limited experience with Wano, either the quality has improved since those articles, or it is more suitable to our Oz conditions than those in the US. It doesn't burn as clean as Swiss but the holes in the paper aren't too disappointing.
I was wondering if anyone can advise:
1. Is Wano powder now widely used in the US
2. Any opinions/comparisons re the quality
3. Any opinions as to the quality/difference between their ffg and PP powders.

Just curious.

[smokemjoe]

I use it in my bowling ball mortar, about $7.00 a pound, I mix it with the same with fuse powder which is about $1.00 a pound. What I use maybe to slow in a cart. gun. But 4-5 oz. will place a ball 600 + yards.

[Don McDowell]

Here it's marketed as Schuetzen, and Grafs also puts their label on it.
It's good powder, I actually like it better than Swiss. But as with Swiss the kernel size of the powder is smaller than the Goex. So to get 2f Schuetzen to do the same velocity etc as I was getting with the 2f Goex I had to drop back a few grs to the same charge weight as I used with 3f Goex.
I did try some 1f Schuetzen in my 44-77 and it just hated the stuff, so I'm glad I only had 1 lb of it.

[10 ga]

If it's Schuttzen, my experience is that it's not as "hot" as Swiss but just as good and less $ than Goex. Blackdiamond and KIK are cheaper and dirtier but still give acceptable performance. Personally I use Schutzen, Blackdiamond and KIK pretty interchangeably for the muskets and shotguns and plinking with the rifles and use the Swiss for hunting and competitive ($) shooting. My $.02 worth. 10 ga



x

[John Boy]

plourbag, In 2009, Wano reformulated the processing of the gunpowder (Schuetzen) to increase the velocity of their several grades, ie - FFg and FFFG. Per
James Kirkland, the owner of the US distributor in the US, the powders have an 8 - 10% increased velocity as of 2009. Wano feels that ...

The Germans don't feel that any further improvement in velocities can be achieved without changing charcoals.

Of the 5 powder manufacturers, only 3 use Alder wood for their charcoal ... Wano - Swiss and KIK. Wano uses subcontracted straight Alder. Swiss and KIK use Alder Buckthorn, the best wood to make charcoal. Diamondback uses a bamboo and Goex uses Yellow Maple

Question for you ... what is PP grade grade?

[Southern Son]

Johnboy
Here in Oz, Wano has 2 lines, first is the standard , Fg, FFg, etc, the other is what they call Presision Sporting Powder, it has Pg, PPg, and so on. Mostly I think that the biggest difference is in the amount of "fines" in the can. When I was loading FFg, I would "sock" the powder, and out of a Kilo tin of FFg, I would get about 200 grains (weight) in really fines dust out of the tin. That is OK if it is spread out through the whole tin, but it was mostly at the bottom, so you got it in the last few rounds. Anyway, then I got some PPg, when I socked that, I got at most 30 grains of fines. It shot OK, but I didn't notice any extra velocity at the chronograph (before I shot it, anyway), and it did not really shoot "cleaner", but the extream spreads were better with the PPg.

[John Boy]

SS, the P's sounds to me something like the sieve ratios used for the various grades of powder ... 10 mesh to 50/60 mesh for FFFFg grade powder. I'll send James Kirkland a message, Schuetzen LLC, Distributor owner of Schuezten powders in the US ... to find the meaning out exactly

Thanks for the knowledge transfer

[plourbag]

Thanks fellas, I love this site. I always get reliable and great info. I'm a bit jealous about the US$7.00 a pound though, here it varies from AUS$55.00 to AUS$75.00 per kilogram (2.2pounds) and I can only obtain it in major cities (I'm over 400km from my nearest source - fortunately he's the AUS$55.00 one!)

[John Boy]

plourbag - why is black powder so expensive down under? Is it because of taxes?

[1874Sharps]

SS and Plourbag,

Ouch! I did not know that BP was so pricey down under. Is it lawful to make your own BP in your countries? If so, perhaps that would be a rewarding pursuit, as it would give you another shooting related venue for your creativity and cheap BP.

If you were to talk to the owner/manager of Powder Inc. (the outfit I buy my BP from out of Arkansas) you could have any questions you have concerning the "dark arts" answered. He has his finger on the pulse of the BP market and is quite knowledgible.

[plourbag]

plourbag - why is black powder so expensive down under? Is it because of taxes?

I have no idea John Boy. I still carry around an old 1 lb canister of Curtis & Harvey that I bought in Cairns (Queensland) in 1971 with the price tag of $4.75 (our dollar was worth about $1.20 US in those days). Everyone who sees it dreams of the good ol' days but I guess even then it was damned expensive compared to it cost in the US.
The answer might be that, as we have no domestic producer, we have to pay what the overseas producer asks and they'll ask as much as we're prepared to pay before we go smokeless.
I guess we just need a bigger market.

[plourbag]

SS and Plourbag,

Ouch! I did not know that BP was so pricey down under. Is it lawful to make your own BP in your countries? If so, perhaps that would be a rewarding pursuit, as it would give you another shooting related venue for your creativity and cheap BP.

If you were to talk to the owner/manager of Powder Inc. (the outfit I buy my BP from out of Arkansas) you could have any questions you have concerning the "dark arts" answered. He has his finger on the pulse of the BP market and is quite knowledgible.

Not sure if it's legal but I'm kinda reluctant to play around with home-made explosives. I've read how to do it in all the underground terrorist manuals (Don't freak out, I was required to keep up to date with them in my profession, I wore a white hat) and made up a few concoctions (legally) to check them out. I love things that go "BANG" but never felt comfortable in the role of the mad scientist.
I'll buy my BP but thanks for the info.

[M.A.D]

Hell no its not legal in Australia too manufacture your own unless you are properly licensed....
If you want cheap powder, try Acme fireworks QLD.... They might sell you a keg... I used to pay $400 for a 20kg keg of Chinese 3f... I used it in everything... Not as clean as Euro powder, but well under half the price.. I also used to use UEE (QLD)(South African powder) which was about $12 kg in my Mortors and cannons....

[John Boy]

440.925 pounds = 20 kg for the Lidu Chinese FFFg @ $1.10 a pound ... A Deal! Here in the States I pay $11.80 per pound for their Fg that is called Skirmish. Use it only for shotshells

[M-Tecs]

2.2 x 20 = 44 lbs in my book. Isn't a kg a kilogram which is 2.2 lbs?

[bigted]

as im getting ready for an order of a replacement of my cartridge...if i get this rite...the shuetzen 2fg should run pretty close to what im used to huh?

[Don McDowell]

No Ted the Schuetzen 2f is smaller and thereby faster than Cartridge . KIK 1.5 is a good direct replacement.

[cajun shooter]

All black powder that is made out of the borders of the USA are smaller in grain size that our own Goex. You are comparing apples and oranges if you compare KIK 2F to Goex 2F.
All black powder is the same when it comes from one maker with the grain size being the only difference in performance.
Each grain of powder burns from the outside in and therefore if it is larger, it will burn slower and then faster if smaller.
I can only guess that it has to do with our decimal system vs the metric system and that is just a huge guess on my part.
It has to be politics that are involved in the price of the real Black Powder in Australia. Just as they made laws to take all the handguns away, they figure they will just price out the buyers with high prices.
A boat brings all the Swiss, Diamondback, Kik and all others to our shores, what is the difference in bringing it to Australia besides more miles?

[Don McDowell]

David I ran chronograph tests, 2f express and 2f KIK, same weight charge, same bullet , cases primer and rifle. the KIK was 2 fps slower than the express.

[montana_charlie]

I don't step in here because I have any direct knowledge. I still have enough Goex Cartridge to satisfy my needs for a while, so I haven't tried any other brand. One of the things that supposedly raised the price of Cartridge is that it is more 'uniform' than (say) Goex FF. It's approximately the same granule size as FF, but less 'fines'.

But, since the conversation has turned to comparative granule size, and Ted is looking to replace Cartridge powder, I dug into my notes to come up with these numbers from John Boy.

Just judging by raw numbers, the 'uniformity' of the KIK Fg looks rather interesting.

Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B
12 mesh – 0.62% retained
14 mesh – 0.03% retained
20 mesh – 97.54% retained - call it 98%
30 mesh – 01.70% retained
Through – 0.11%

.................................................. ..............


KIK Fg (Lot 3910 - 2010 vintage)
12 Mesh – Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 99.99% - call it 100%
30 Mesh – Trace
Would have expected grain holds on screens larger than 20 Mesh.
Hold percentage is really equivalent to a US FFg powder.

KIK 1.5Fg (Lot 3910)
12- Mesh - Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 95.87% - call it 96%
30 mesh – 4.13%
40 mesh – Trace

KIK FFg (Lot 3910)
12 mesh - Zero
14 Mesh - Zero
20 Mesh – 70.68% - call it not even close
30 Mesh – 29.32%
40 Mesh - Trace