45/90 Shooters?

[XTR]

XTR, you got to be kidding me right? 1200 Fps max?

My loads are with Black powder and make 1356 fps with ease and some are well over 1400 Fps with a GG bullet.

BP works great in the big cases, it was what they were designed for to begin with.

KW
The Lunger.

I was actually fishing with that one, and I'm being a little sarcastic here.

I joined this forum last yr after I got a Win-Mir 1885. Take a look at my posts. I've been on a quest to get accuracy from cast bullets at higher velocities. Every time I've asked the question, I've been told that I should drop my velocity back to what they shot in 1874 and quit my futile quest.

I'm glad to know that there are actually people out there getting good accuracy at higher MVs. Oh as for the Smokeless/BP thing. I don't care what makes your cork pop.

[oldred]

Fellows this was not supposed to be a smokeless vs BP thread, 45/90 vs 45/70 or anything vs anything else for that matter. I was simply curious as to how popular this round is and what type loads (of all kinds) that people are shooting. BP works great in the 2.4 and it's a lot of fun but smokeless works great also and it too is a lot of fun to shoot, I shoot both types of powders depending on the situation and I find the 2.4 works just as well with smokeless or BP as does the 45/70.

For smokeless loads I like the H4895 and Varget powders I mentioned earlier because of the good case fill and low pressures but these are the only smokeless powders I have tried with the 500 grain bullet. I did shoot some Blackhorn 209, which is IMO a bulky smokeless instead of the BP sub it is sold for, and while it worked really good it was just too darned expensive for no real advantage.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, everyone..I came across something interesting..It seems when the Sharps company came out with the .45 2.6 (.45-100)..the extra case length was intended for a grease "cookie". The Creedmoor match shooters soon learned to wipe after every shot..and as a result..the xtra length wasn't needed..Sharps brought out a shorter case...2.4" (.45-90) as a result of this. I wonder if the hunters..who seldom had the luxery of wiping, still prefered the 2.6 case using the grease wad?

[geargnasher]

I thought Winchester came out with the 45/90, or is that different from the Sharps 2.4? There were so many variants I can't remember what's what.

Gear

[oldred]

Sharps never loaded a "45/90" but the 2.4 Sharps and the 45/90 are the same cases, Winchester came out with the 45/90 which uses the 2.4 case and a lighter 300 grain bullet for what they called an Express load. That's interesting about the reason for the 2.6 case, it seems I recall hearing that once before and it makes sense because Sharps already had the 45/110 for a heavier alternative to the 45/70. I think the Sharps 2 7/8" (45/110) was available first in 1876 with the 2.6 (45/100) becoming available later that same year with the 2.4 (45/90) being introduced the following year. As for using smokeless in the 45/90 it was from very early on factory loaded with smokeless when smokeless rounds started to appear, according to "Cartridges of the world" the 45/90 was factory loaded with smokeless powder from 1895 until it was discontinued in 1936. Back many years ago I got my first center fire rifle when I inherited an 1886 Winchester in 45/90 along with a few boxes of (smokeless) ammo, best I can estimate from what I have learned since these rounds were from the thirty's, and being a kid (1965-66) not knowing at the time what I had I shot the cartridges and threw away the cases! I have since passed on the Winchester to a nephew and I still see it occasionally but I would dearly love to have those original 45/90 cartridges I wasted back then.

[montana_charlie]

Interesting. Your MVs are about 200 FPS higher that what seems to be the accepted max for GG bullets at least what I've read here.

That depends on what you were reading and how you took it.

That 1200 fps 'limit' usually shows up in discussions which start off with a question about 'max loads', 'heavy loads', or 'Ruger No. 1 loads' in a .45 singleshot rifle.

Responders usually don't waste much time in telling the author that - no matter how strong the rifle may be - throwing a 500 grainer at the speed of light is going to weld his shoulder blades together.

THAT kind of conversation puts 1200 fps up as a reasonable 'maximum'.

CM

[Lead pot]

why is it that a lot of shooters on these forums seem to think that driving a bullet at warp speed is the answer. The snail pace the .45-70 travels has made the trip down range past the 1K target and it has hit it's point of aim for over 150 years and still going strong on long range matches

[oldred]

You have a very good point but in this case I don't think this thread is about max performance, of which I agree with you totally, rather it is about the 45/90, how many people shoot it and what loads are common. I certainly did not start this discussion looking for high performance loads nor even asking about specific data, I was just curious as to how much interest there is in the 45/90 round. Evidently even Sharps felt there was room for improvement on the venerable 45/70 way back in 1876 and some of us just enjoy shooting those old classic rounds even if they, as you correctly point out, are not necessary. Why do we want them? kind of hard to say really but my custom Highwall in 45/90 is soon going to be rechambered to 45/110 and will become a BP only rifle. Like you I could never understand the desire to "hot-rod" an old firearm but the subject comes up often, "What's the maximum load my Rolling Block, Ballard, old Winchester, etc will handle"? Why push these fine old classics? I know a fellow that shoots a Trap Door with loads that are scary (scary for a trapdoor anyway) and when he was warned about it the reply was "these are military rifles and they're built like a tank"! The smokeless powders chosen for my Highwall were selected with pressures in mind and the goal was to fill the case and still keep these pressures around 28,000 PSI or less, if I want to hotrod this caliber I will buy a 458 magnum.

[waksupi]

Why not just buy my .458 Win Mag, and be done with it? Then you can really beat yourself up.

[oldred]

Why not just buy my .458 Win Mag, and be done with it? Then you can really beat yourself up.

The key word there was "If" I wanted to hotrod that caliber! I have not owned a 458 but did get the chance to shoot one some years back, awesome rifle! The fact is that even if I had a need for one I could not stand the recoil these days, at 14 1/2 lbs my Highwall in the 45/90 chambering is really tame and I don't think the 45/110 will be much worse shooting BP.

[geargnasher]

My 13-1/2 lb 1874 beats the tar out of me with anything over midrange loads. I said you CAN to to 1800 fps with 500 grains (try THAT in a .45/70!), not that I did it often or enjoyed it. Sure shoots flat, though. The rifle and I both prefer around 1350-1400 fps with boolits in that weight and smokeless powder. I never was able to chronograph the BP loads I shot through it, too dang much smoke.

Gear

[Lead pot]

I have no intentions loading any of my 74 Sharps to 1800 fps even the calibers I load with 115 grains of black powder with. There is no need to do that.
My .45-70 shoots just fine at 1150 fps out to the 1000 yard irons with a 513 gr bullet
My .45-90 runs at about 1250 fps I load it at with a 535 gr bullet
The 44-90 BN is loaded at between 1320 to 1400 using a 400 to 505 grain bullet
The 50-90 1305 fps with a 720 gr bullet
The .40-70 with a 410 gr bullet close to 1280 fps.
What I'm getting at they all hit the 1000 yard iron with no problems.

Oldred
To answer your question. All of the calibers I listed plus some other calibers I have not, if it would come down to just one rifle one caliber it would be a tough choice between the .44-77 and the .45/2.4 for me.
I think the 2.4 is a great all around caliber loaded with a full case of black powder what it was designed for.

Kurt

[semtav]

The good thing about the 45-90, is that you can load it from 45-70 to 45-100 velocities with excellent accuracy. Course when you get to the 45-100 velocities on a hot day, your fouling control techniques have to keep up with the velocity.

[GARCIA]

I have two 1886 Winchesters in 45-90. One is an original and the other is a rechambered reproduction Winchester.

I use strictly gas checked bullets at 350 grain and at 400 grain.

I use strictly the load date for the Trapdoor in both of them. The top end load of Varget from the HODGDON web site will give me around 1550fps with the 400 grain bullet. Don't need more than that as far as I am concerned.

The Lyman 48th shows some pretty heavy load data for the 45-90. I have no desire to launch a 400gr bullet at almost 2200fps.

Varget has done me well and I am sticking with it as it fills my needs.

Tom

[25ring]

Geargnasher,I've been using WC872 with a small kicker of RL-7 and a Lyman postell in a 45-70.Getting around 1300 fps with excellent accuacy.I'm about to try to work up a load in the 45-90,keeping the velocity in the same range [1300-1350].I'll probably need to use either a longer,heavier bullet or a thicker wad or filler.Have you done any load developement in this area? I'd appreciate any input you would have.PS--Nice to see someone else thinking outside the box! Thanks,Mike.

[MGySgt]

Currently I use 3031 and a 430 grain GC with a dacron filler in my 45/90.

I went into quickload and checked with the Lyman 535 grain boolit.

I would start at about 36 grains, dacron filler for a MV of 1330 plus. 41 grains was about 1800 PSI but that was with a filler - soooooo

[geargnasher]

3031 never shot as well in mine as even straight Reloder 7 or 5744. Duplexing is where it's at with smokeless. Use inert, granular fillers to take up space.

Gear

[MGySgt]

Gear - I have MOA from 2 45/90's with a 430gr FP GC with 3031 and slightly compressed dacron filler.

I might try a duplex load but I would have to do awhole lot of reading up on it before I would try it. For some reason it just scares the poop out of me!

[geargnasher]

I was using heavier, plain-based boolits in mine with the 3031. Reloder 7 grouped quite a bit better through full load workups for both, and I did use lightly compressed Dacron. I think the gas check probably made a difference, not to mention weight and different guns, brass, reloading techniques, etc. It's amazing to me how no two of use could get the exact same load to work the same even if we tried! Too many little nuances of components and technique.

Gear

[oldred]

Geargnasher, I notice you mention Reloader 7 and that got my attention because I have been considering it recently so if you don't mind I would like to ask a couple of questions. Was that load with a 500 grain bullet? How was the case fill compared to the 3031? How clean does it burn? From comparing loads for the 45/90 from the Lyman manual (which are waaaay too hot IMHO! But that's another subject I would like to discuss some other time) it would seem that Rx 7 offers good performance similar to the H4895 and Varget I have been using but at even lower pressures in the 2.4 case.