45/90 Shooters?

[oldred]

In my searching of the net for info on the 45/90 I find many others asking the same questions I have about this excellent caliber but almost all also have the same problem- lots of questions on loads, etc but little info to be found. IMHO the 45/90 should have seen the revival that the 45/70 enjoyed (but then that's just my opinion), because it will do anything the 45/70 will do and in most cases even more. For BP shooting it has a definite edge because of the increased case capacity but this larger case also allows for slight velocity improvements over the 45/70 at comparable pressures even when using smokeless so what's not to like about it? So my question here is how many of you guys shoot this fine old round and what's your opinion of it for a single shot rifle?

[montana_charlie]

The 45/70 is known to be capable of accurate shooting at 1000 yards. But, to get that far, a fair number of shooters opt for short-butted bore riders or tapered driving bands in order to set the bullet out farther ... and get more powder under it.

For that reason alone, the 45/90 is a better choice. You can load a bullet with all of it's grease grooves covered to protect it from the elements, and STILL get 80 grains, or more, of powder under it.

So far, the heaviest charges I have used had 86 grains of Goex Cartridge, and a 550 grain bullet seated about .670" deep in the case.

CM

[DaveCampbell]

I've been a fan of the 45-90 for years after I traded for an original 1886 Winchester in that caliber. Yes, I know it's not exactly the same cartridge. Eventually I came across a Pedersoli Sharps is in the correct chambering. The more I shoot it, the better I like it. A couple of months ago I was at the Whittington Center with the Sharps and spent a morning hammering an iron bison at 1,123 yards on the Long Range Silhouette range. I was using a 405-grain boolit because that was all I had. I am now looking for the 535-grain Postell mold. I may use it this fall on a critter or two.

[XTR]

My load testing with my 45-70 has caused me to question the point of the longer 45-** cases. I've come to understand that you can't push cast bullets but so fast w/o some kind of modification to the bullet, either gas checks or paper patches.

So my question to the guys who shoot the longer cases, is the point to get heavier/longer/higher BC bullets up to the 1200FPS MV threshold or were they designed around paper patching to get bullets up to the higher velocities that I keep getting told are pointless?

[Don McDowell]

I'm with XTR if you're talking smokeless the 45-70 will do about anything that needs doing, and if thats not enough then maybe just jump right on into the 458 winchester or Lott.
The 2.4 inch case came about after the Springfield armory tried loading 90 grs of powder in the 2.1 inch case to make their trapdoors more competitive with the big 44's that were popular at the Creedmoor and other long range events. Then winchester looking for the almighty speed freak load took that same case, stuffed 90 grs of powder under a deep seated 300 gr bullet to get some express loadings for the 86. The cartridge then as now as with a whole slew of others just didn't respond well to smokeless powder and died..
For allround use with bp it might be pretty hard to beat the 2.4 case in a single shot action, but for smokeless it's not so much.

[oldred]

I agree that BP loadings is where the 2.4 excels but it's also true that it will improve upon the shorter cases even with smokeless powders. It's often stated that the 45/70 can be overloaded with smokeless so there's no point in the longer cases but that's not entirely true because the 2.4 will, depending on powder choice, yield as much as 200 FPS or so more velocity than the 45/70 when loaded to the same pressures due to the extra case capacity. I suppose it could also be correctly pointed out that the 458 will do anything the 2.4 will do and a heck of a lot more BUT look at what the 458s are chambered in. If I were shooting a heavy bolt action magnum type rifle I would of course prefer the awesome 458 but in a highwall or Sharps rifle I would much rather have the 45/90 (2.4) , I would also MUCH prefer the Highwall or Sharps to the bolt gun anyway. Just some thoughts and I fully realize that most of the pros/cons (actually very few "cons" for either round!) of the 45/90 vs the 45/70 will depend a great deal upon the shooter's preferences and what works for some may not be ideal for someone else, still I look forward to any and all comments on this wonderful old cartridge.

[Don McDowell]

You could always go with a ruger #1 in one of the 458's and call it your belted improoved borchardt... lol

[Kenny Wasserburger]

XTR,

Most of the guys using the longer 45 cases, in competition are getting around 1350 to 1450 fps with their loads, thats a standard 20-1 or some of us use 16-1 alloy GG bullets, I personally use 16-1 alloy. My GG load runs 1406 fps with a 525 gr bullet. My Paper Patch load of 540 grs runs around 1356 to 1365 depending on alt and humidity.

This PP load, this past year has resulted in some very good Master class scores and Placed well at, the Winter Nationals and the America's Cup Match, In May it Won the Scope class at Alliance Neb for the Long Range Portion of that Match.

The First day of the Winter Nationals, the Top 4 rifles in very windy conditions, 1st 45-100, 2nd 45-100, 3rd 45-100, 4th 45-110.

the Shooters,
1st John Venhaus
2nd Dave Gullo, No surpise there
3rd Bryan Youngberg
4th Kenny Wasserburger

Again it was very very windy tough conditions, the longer cases really shined.

KW
The Lunger

[XTR]

Interesting. Your MVs are about 200 FPS higher that what seems to be the accepted max for GG bullets at least what I've read here.

[MGySgt]

Whats a GG boolit?

[oldred]

Whats a GG boolit?

Grease Groove

[geargnasher]

GG= Grease Groove, as opposed to paper-jacketed 'slicks' with no grooves cast in the boolit.

The 45/90 is a very versatile and wonderful cartridge, especially if chambered in a heavy single-shot. The 45/70 is no slouch, either. I'm not going to debate merits, but will say that the 45/90 is, well, .300" longer and will hold more powder!

I shoot smokeless powder exclusively nowdays in mine, and it STILL offers an advantage even with loads that wouldn't fill up a 2.1 case completely. The larger volume allows for lower pressures for the same velocity, so ultimately the velocity can be bumped a good deal without undue recoil or pressure increases. I like being able to shoot the same long ranges as with a 2.1 without quite as much recoil.

The 45/90 has a few more options than the 2.1, so that's the reason to own one if one has a choice.

Gear

[MGySgt]

Thank you OldRed and Gear. I have 2 45/90's and like them both very much. Thought I might have been using the wrong boolit in them.

I shoot smokeless - and feel the same way Gear does - I can get a slightly higher velocity with less recoil in the 45/90 than I can in my 45/70's.

[oldred]

I shoot either H4895 or Varget (when I shoot smokeless) pushing a 500 grain Lee roundnose in my Highwall with really good results, any other suggestions on smokeless powder choice with the 500 grain Lee rn?

Not too long ago at all I made the statement that while I really like shooting real BP in my muzzle loaders I had no interest in using it in my cartridge guns, then a while back curiosity got the best of me and I loaded up a few rounds with FFG behind that 500 grain Lee slug. I have not been the same since!

[XTR]

I buy Varget by the 8lb jug, usually 2 or 3 at a time to reload for my F-TR rifle. I tried it in my 45-70 and for 405 and 350 class bullets found it to be too slow, lots of unburned powder in the barrel, but I can see where it would work well behind heavier bullets long flat pressure curve and a bit longer burn time to burn more of it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

XTR, you got to be kidding me right? 1200 Fps max?

My loads are with Black powder and make 1356 fps with ease and some are well over 1400 Fps with a GG bullet.

BP works great in the big cases, it was what they were designed for to begin with.

KW
The Lunger.

[geargnasher]

1800 fps (chronographed) is fairly easy to achieve with paper-patched, grease-groove boolits in the 500-grain range if you size them to .002" over bore and patch for a snug fit in a fired case. The trick is seat them to engrave the patch when loaded (heavy thumb pressure to fully chamber in a falling-block action), and think outside the box with smokeless powder. Surplus cannon powder and a kicker charge of Reloader 7 and some good compression with inert filler helps a bunch. I use clip-on wheel weight metal or 20:1 when doing this, and the boolit nose designs seem to matter much less than when shooting patched pure lead with black powder.

I don't have a lot of exprerience with BP, but enough to know that all that is said about specific boolit weights and nose profiles for specific ranges is spot-on. With harder boolits, patched or not, and smokeless powder just about any boolit shape will do as long as it fits the gun and you find the right powder with which to launch it.



Gear

[Kenny Wasserburger]

You know,

I am sorry, this is a smokless forum.

My bad.

Tried to help.

Wont make that mistake again.
KW
The Lunger

[geargnasher]

You know,

I am sorry, this is a smokless forum.

My bad.

Tried to help.

Wont make that mistake again.
KW
The Lunger

What's that supposed to mean? Nobody's badmouthing BP here, unlike all the grief the smokeless guys get from some of the "purists" here.

What I meant with "think outside the box with smokeless powder" was don't just limit yourself to conventional XMP5744 or Reloder 7 loads like the manuals want to stick with. Think SLOW powder for a long, low-pressure burn, and a kicker charge for cleanliness and ignition consistency in the straight-walled cartridges with large expansion ratios.

The OP was pretty general, and indeed the 2.4 has a real advantage over the 2.1 especially with black powder, I'm glad a few people brought that up to round-out the discussion.

Gear

[EDG]

What size 100 yard groups does this translate to?

XTR,

Most of the guys using the longer 45 cases, in competition are getting around 1350 to 1450 fps with their loads, thats a standard 20-1 or some of us use 16-1 alloy GG bullets, I personally use 16-1 alloy. My GG load runs 1406 fps with a 525 gr bullet. My Paper Patch load of 540 grs runs around 1356 to 1365 depending on alt and humidity.

This PP load, this past year has resulted in some very good Master class scores and Placed well at, the Winter Nationals and the America's Cup Match, In May it Won the Scope class at Alliance Neb for the Long Range Portion of that Match.

The First day of the Winter Nationals, the Top 4 rifles in very windy conditions, 1st 45-100, 2nd 45-100, 3rd 45-100, 4th 45-110.

the Shooters,
1st John Venhaus
2nd Dave Gullo, No surpise there
3rd Bryan Youngberg
4th Kenny Wasserburger

Again it was very very windy tough conditions, the longer cases really shined.

KW
The Lunger