WC860 in .223/5.56 - Yes But....

[MUSTANG]

Performed some more testing today with .223/5.56 and WC860. Weather was cold, rainy and winds of 25-30mph so I did not set the chronograph up to measure velocities. Groups are probably slightly enlarged as the Target was blowing around sufficiently that I could see the bull moving during shooting from wind gusting.

I still think I was able to gather some useful data. (Click on picture to enlarge)




Although I did not Chronograph these loads due to the high wind today (afraid of the screens on the chronograph blowing away or being damaged, not the bullet drift), it is a fair assumption that the WC844 load will be in the 3050fps range, and both the Swaged and Cast Boolits using WC860 powder operating in the 2300fps range based on previous data collected.

It is interesting to note that accuracy achieved with the 22LR Swaged 60 Grain bullets pushed by the WC860 & Unique load, was comparable to the same bullet with WC844 powder I used as a baseline. The WC860 load shoots lower due to the lesser velocity. The military M855 load is similar to my baseline load, it uses a 62 grain bullet and 26.1 Grains of WC844, my baseline WC844 load had the same 26.1 grain powder charge. Difference would be a longer bearing surface for the M855 bullet as it is a combination of a steel penetrator and copper (no lead in these military surplus bullets).

Unfortunately the Cast Boolit NOE 225 60 Grain load I tested was far less accurate. I believe the expanded group size can be attributed to the .224 H&I sizing die I used on the Cast Boolits. I have ordered a .225 H&I sizing die which will be closer to the .225 diameter of as cast wheel weight boolits from my NOE 225 60Gr mold, we will see how it does i future testing. I am thinking that I might have to polish it out to .226 if the larger .225 sizing/lube does not shrink the groups down to near 1MOA (Big reduction in Group size is required to get near 1MOA).

Load data sheets for test groups is attached as a pdf.

Mustang

[roverboy]

I know this is a old thread but, I've got some of this powder and a .223 and had to try it. I loaded 26 gr. and Win. 55 gr. FMJ and CCI 400.
Shot good and recoil was super light. Noticed a little bit of powder in bore but, I don't care. I'm having fun!

[MUSTANG]

Roverboy:

1. Good to hear you had good results, and most importantly had a good time.

2. In the past there were those questioning "Why I wanted to explore super slow powders such as WC860 and WC872". Well, lets see;....

a. Recently most "Appropriate" powders for .223/.308/30-06/etc.. went from Readily Available, to Not In Stock at almost all on line sources.
b. Today, I noted that Gunbroker lists a variety of 8lb rifle powders "Starting At" $250.00 for bids, almost double a month ago.
c. Surplus WC860 & WC872 is sold out at Wiedner's and Pat's. Amazing since it seemed they could not get rid of it and prices kept dropping over the last few years.

For those who picked up these less expensive powders, they now have a secondary source to keep shooting. What I have noted locally is many shooters (non Cast Boolit Shooters), are afraid to shoot what they have because they feel they may not be able to replace it. Last time this phenomena was this drastic was during World War II according to stories I heard from my Grand Parents, Aunts & Uncles, and Parents.

3. I'm still working WC860 and WC872 in .223/5.56, as well as .308/7.62 & 30-06. Still enjoying the pursuit.

Mustang

[flounderman]

You would get a little more velocity with a few grains of kicker powder

[madsenshooter]

And a much cleaner burn.

[roverboy]

Roverboy:

1. Good to hear you had good results, and most importantly had a good time.

2. In the past there were those questioning "Why I wanted to explore super slow powders such as WC860 and WC872". Well, lets see;....

a. Recently most "Appropriate" powders for .223/.308/30-06/etc.. went from Readily Available, to Not In Stock at almost all on line sources.
b. Today, I noted that Gunbroker lists a variety of 8lb rifle powders "Starting At" $250.00 for bids, almost double a month ago.
c. Surplus WC860 & WC872 is sold out at Wiedner's and Pat's. Amazing since it seemed they could not get rid of it and prices kept dropping over the last few years.

For those who picked up these less expensive powders, they now have a secondary source to keep shooting. What I have noted locally is many shooters (non Cast Boolit Shooters), are afraid to shoot what they have because they feel they may not be able to replace it. Last time this phenomena was this drastic was during World War II according to stories I heard from my Grand Parents, Aunts & Uncles, and Parents.

3. I'm still working WC860 and WC872 in .223/5.56, as well as .308/7.62 & 30-06. Still enjoying the pursuit.

Mustang

What kind of WC860 loads are you using in .308 and .30-06?

[khmer6]

I have plenty of wc844, but decided to finally bite the bullet on wc860 becuase of this thread! Here comes another 50lbs of powder.......

[MUSTANG]

What kind of WC860 loads are you using in .308 and .30-06?

Roverboy; first it is worth stating that the following are Duplex Powder loads. Duplex loads use a Higher speed powder as a Kicker/Booster to increase the burn rate/temperature initiation of the slow powder main charge. Using too much of the Booster powder is extremely Dangerous, particularly with FAST powders. There is also a phenomena called SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect) that has been reported for some types of loads deviating from traditional reloading measures. All loads with a "Booster/Kicker" need to be full case capacity with slight compression to preclude powder shifting. Study and learn before moving forward with Booster/Duplex loads. USE THIS INFORMATION AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The following loads are not yet acceptable to me from an accuracy perspective, but provided as an answer to your query:


.308

5 Grains Unique (over the primer "Kicker Charge")
43 Grains WC860 on top of "Kicker Charge"
Either of the following: RCBS 165Sil, .30 cal. Lee 170 Flat Pt, RCBS 200, & Lyman 311365
Sized to .310 or .311 depending on rifle.


.30-06

5 Grains Unique (over the primer "Kicker Charge")
45 Grains WC860 on top of "Kicker Charge"
Either of the following: RCBS 165Sil, .30 cal. Lee 170 Flat Pt, RCBS 200, & Lyman 311365
Sized to .310 or .311 depending on rifle.

As I said, I am not happy with the accuracy of these loads and am slowly working with a variety of changes seeking to improve the accuracy. Look forward to seeing results of your pursuits

Mustang

[khmer6]

I noticed castpics has some info on surplus powder. Have you tried the losted 860 loads in 308 or 30.06 yet? Looks like ill be using 860 from now on in my military surplus cast once my stash of surplus ammo dries up

[45 2.1]

The following loads are not yet acceptable to me from an accuracy perspective

A little help for you. Pistol powders produce poor accuracy as a booster in 30 cal slow powder loads. You need to be in the fast end of the rifle powders for that.

[khmer6]

A little help for you. Pistol powders produce poor accuracy as a booster in 30 cal slow powder loads. You need to be in the fast end of the rifle powders for that.

Would 844 or 846 serve as a good booster?

[45 2.1]

Would 844 or 846 serve as a good booster?

They are both med/slow for the 223 and med. for the 308. They will do better than the pistol/ shotgun powders, but you want something that is a little faster dependent on just which slow burner your trying to help burn correctly. No powder is a all use number. You have to balance the boost to the slower powder your using. Something close to 4198 speed would probably be better.

[MUSTANG]

WC860 is far from the optimum powder for .223/.308.30-06; but I enjoy exploring how to make it do (I'll light up a few .50BMG this weekend at 1200 Yards, just for a change).

For those looking for a more suitable (but not necessarily optimum powder) to use in .223/,308/30-06, I was recently able to get a few jugs of Winchester 760 Powder from Powder Valley ( http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ ) .

It is still listed as available on their web site as of this evening. It's supposedly a good powder in those calibers for the heavy bullets. I'll explore it myself sometime this spring. It may be another option because it is available.

Mustang

[khmer6]

winchester 760 is not cheap enough to plink i still have plenty of 844 to use in 223.

[Jailer]

Mustang have you made any more progress in your load experimentation?

[MUSTANG]

Load development and shooting has been limited this year. We moved the horses, shooting, and reloading stuff North to our 2nd home in Kalispell a couple months ago. I have been getting hay in, rearranging furniture in the house & hanging pictures for the wife, and as time permits attempting to arrange the "Shed" (12ft X 18ft outbuilding) as a reloading room and work shop.

I have been able to set aside a small amount of time to resume my explorations with WC860/WC872 in the .223, .308 and 30-06. Not so much for load development with real scientific process/discipline behind it, rather more an effort of capturing some data as I opened boxes and cleaned up some of the odds and ends that were packed from the Loading Bench/Shop down south and carted up North. I had a variety of "Seconds" in .30 caliber RCBS 165 Grain Silhouettes I loaded into .308 and some definite "Rejects" in swaged .224 bullets from 22LR that were either to be shot as , or go back in the pot for recasting into boolits or cores. The following are results of loading with WC860 for blasting ammo, nothing was chronographed, but should be in the vicinity of past efforts (except the shooting temps were in the low 40's to mid 50's).



The above two groups were shot with cast Lee .224 Battor Boolits wearing aluminum gas checks. The groups are open, but far better than I had anticipated. When I briefly tried a few of these boolits more than a year ago, I was getting a shotgun pattern. Did not record the load data on that outing so I can not compare to see where the improvements may have come from. I have a few pounds of these Lee Bator's left, so I'll look at working up some test loads in the future using WC860.



The above two groups are nothing to crow about, but do show that the loads can support "Fun Shoots" or short range (100 yards or so) rifle drills for those who are into action type shooting. Surprisingly, the 2nd picture shows a group less than 1" wide, but about 5" tall. This would indicate that additional work "A" grade Swaged 22LR bullets of the 60 Grain weight is warranted. May also indicate that a heavier bullet (70, 75, 80 grain) is required to get a complete and consistent powder burn).



These targets were shot with the AR-15. Group sizes are similar to those from the savage Bolt Rifle. That's encouraging since this particular AR-15 (My spouses Rifle) has never been much to rave about in accuracy department).



This last group is considerably larger than I have shot with the same combination (.308 Rifle, Boolit, Powder, primer) in the past. As I mentioned earlier, these .30 caliber RCBS 165 Sil's were seconds I had not melted down. I also wonder if lower temperatures might be involved with an accuracy Drop Off given the use of WC860. I'll have to explore that more as we go into Winter, and bench mark again in the Spring against Winter Data.

The use of WC860/WC872 keeps me shooting when others can not find powder. I only have 1lb of Unique left, so hopefully that powder will become available soon (for kicker/booster charges). I have seen Green Dot and Blue Dot become more readily available, but they did not prove as consistent as Unique in my previous testing for accuracy/consistency of velocities.


Mustang

[NewbieDave007]

I know this thread is older but I wanted to thank Mustang for the interesting read and giving me some stuff to think about.

Thanks.
Dave

[skizzums]

sorry to awaken such an old thread. I found someone selling some WC powders and I was just poking around to see what it's good for and fell into this thread. very interesting read MUSTANG, and I thank you for your work and detailed range reports. I am probably too much of a girly-man to try it, but it's still an interesting read, and I wish it was talked about more openly. when I have heard the "taboo" practice talked about before, it was always why NOT to do it. thinking about an extension of the primer function in a "compressed" load makes a lot of sense and is definitely worth thinking about

thanks again, cool post

[khmer6]

If you were going to fool around I would suggest starting off in a strong boot action. I use 860 straight up in magnums because it is similar to some canister powders. I have yet to break it out for the 223 tho

[skizzums]

no plans to fool around, im still a little fresh, it's just nice to see an honest discussion about the subject. I have asked about it a couple times and got snarked out of the room. just cool to see it talked about amongst grown-ups that can think things through intelligently.