kbstenberg
I like the 300 Blk cause it gives me .30 caliber punch in the AR platform. Makes it a very powerful SD/HD weapon. Makes it an excellant 0-300 yard hunting rig. All this on an AR platform without modification other then a barrel change. And if I wanted to go back to 5.56mm all I need to do is swap uppers!
Doesn't 300 yards seem kinda reaching for a cartridge that struggles to get even 2300 fps with a 125 grain bullet of rather poor shape? Not being argumentative, just realistic.
I have fun with mine, but a 300 yard hunting rifle it most definitely isn't. 200 yards is more like it. I wouldn't call it "very powerful" either. But I do like the swapability and feed reliability, and think it has the edge on the 5.56 in the 16 inch barrels. Trajectory and striking power run out at about the same time, whereas with the 5.56 you can hit with it further than you can kill well with it.
The 300 fits the definition of "carbine" cartridge IMO. That's what most of us who shoot AR's are shooting it in, as I cannot see a long barreled, heavier AR shooting the little Blackout cartridge. No point.
35R,
I would not suggest you try standing 300yds in front of someone with one and letting them take juest one shot at you. It might do more than just leave a bruise...
There is a difference between optimum and possible. They are just about the most fun you can have with an AR, though. The Nosler 125gr BT is pretty sweet at 2200fps.
Rich
Sua Sponte
I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 long rifle bullet at 300 yards either, so that's a rather nonsensical comment you've made that has absolutely nothing to do with its hunting utility, which is the reason for my posting questioning its capabilities.
It's just that a round that falls short of 7.62 X 39 ballistics, or that of a 30-30, being touted at a 300 yard hunting cartridge is not very sensible. It ain't.
Better to be realistic than misguidedly optimistic when a shot at a game animal presents itself.
Originally Posted by Idaho Sharpshooter
The 300blk has the same amount of energy at 300 yards as a 357 magnum at the muzzle.
More good info here:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-cont...V-8-9-11-P.pdf
While the AK may* exceed the velocity/energy of the 300BLK at the muzzle, the 300BLK has available optimal bullets for it that quickly overtake the AK downrange. Add in specially designed bullets that expand well at lower velocities and you have a better hunting round.
* I've never come close to obtaining published velocity for the few AK factoy loads I've checked.
But not a 300 yard hunting round. And the 7.62 has some fairly streamlined bullets as well, but nobody calls it a 300 yard deer cartridge. Same goes for the Blackout.
Sorry.....but low velocity doesn't make a 300 yard hunting cartridge, and the Blackout is velocity challenged. 200 yards is more realistic.
Besides, a 357 is hardly a paragon of energy to be used as a yardstick.
Once plastic tipped bullets get in the 1600-1800 fps range, expansion becomes very problematic on deer ribs. Or any animal's anatomy, and the Blackout is below that at 300. Modern "tipped" bullet technology is not technological enough once impact velocities get low......and even with the lighter tipped bullets, they're low. This is the conflict that occurs when a streamlined bullet impacts. The shape of the bullet and the need to drive the tip into the bullet are to a large degree working at cross purposes in terms of effective expansion.
To be effective expanders at and below this velocity range bullets need heavy skiving, large hollowpoints, and, ideally, both. A skinnier bullet that doesn't expand and carries a 357 pistol's impact energy isn't exactly a sudden killer of game. Best to rein in the optimism a little.
Last edited by 35remington; 08-16-2012 at 06:32 PM.
.300 blk or poke with a sharp stick. there's an obvious winner. Carbine round that knock the heck out of the .30 carbine in performance? Obviously the .300 blk does that. Versatile and fun, they both have that going on. I wouldn't try launching a 200 gr boolit from the .30 carbine. What the heck, the 300 blk looks pretty good to me. Where I think the .300 blk would shine would be in law enforcement where most shots aren't very long with the exception of selective marksmen.
I worked for an agency that used the 9mm H&K 94 for a number of years using Glaser Safety Slugs. They stopped using the H&K after the assault weapons ban of '94. The agency is still using Mini 14 rifles which could easily be re-barreled or replaced. There are several types of frangible bullets out there that would certainly fit the bill.
For deer sized game it would appear the 300 blk at 300 yards is similar to the 30-30 at 200. Kind of hard to argue the effectiveness of the 30-30 as many animals have been bagged with that cartridge. As far as the 300 blk, it looks like a handloaders dream for fun and affordable plinking at many boolit weights. I like the idea of being able to launch plain based cast boolits from the AR platform. Frank
"For deer sized game it would appear the 300 blk at 300 yards is similar to the 30-30 at 200."
That's giving the Blackout substantially more credit than it is due. Fcvan, why don't you whistle up a few downrange ballistic tables that substantiate this statement? Tell you what. I'll do it for you.
The 30-30 carries about 950 ft/lbs at 200 yards with its roundnose bullets, and the bullets expand at that velocity level of around 1600 fps because their roundnosed shape, thin jackets and skiving allow them to do so. This rounded profile and skiving are more suited to low velocity impact than the 300's pointy bullets are. The Blackout's bullet is a poor expander at 300 and carries less energy....about 25% less than the 30-30 carries at 200. Most rate it about 700 ft/lbs at 300 yards with a streamlined 125 with a BC around .360 which is being plenty generous with the BC. Pointed bullets at less than 1600 fps are very problematic expanders.
At 200 yards, with a streamlined 125, the Blackout gets in the 900 ft/lb. range.
One needs to credit the 300's capabilities correctly, rather than overstating them. Given that the Blackout carries about 1100ft/lbs at 100 yards, crediting it with superior energy than the 30-30 at any range under 300 yards is stretching it. As I pointed out, it's a bit behind at 200. It's only a little ahead at 300.
Few call the 30-30 a 300 yard cartridge either. Again.....realism rather than optimism should guide the hunter.
I like my Blackout. But it isn't a 300 yard deer cartridge. No more than the 30-30 with roundnosed bullets is......and nobody credits the 30-30 with capabilities on deer to that range.
I'm not starry eyed with optimism about its capabilities for hunting, but that's okay, because I shoot very few deer over 200 yards anyway, and that makes it no less useful than it is. Some are taking this a bit personally, I think. It's a good cartridge, but velocity challenged. Just being factual.
I also did quite considerable expansion testing using a 7.62 X39 Bullberry 15 inch pistol barrel, which attains velocities similar to a 300 Blackout rifle; in the 2200 fps range. This was in the way of trying to determine which bullet had the best applicability in the pistol. It was informative.
Hornady's 130 SSP bullet did not expand at 200 yards, FWIW. The 125 Ballistic tip did great at 200, but at 300 the bullet expanded only enough to partially open the jacket in a very irregular and small diameter fashion as the plastic tip did not consistently and symmetrically rupture the jacket. The bullet would then sometimes (1 time in 5, maybe) expel the core, which penetrated several inches beyond the jacket, which was braked in the expansion medium due to its light weight.
Thus I can recommend the 125 Ballistic Tip as a good 300 Blackout bullet, but the inconsistent and irregular expansion at 300 yards clearly indicated it was past its capabilities at 2200 fps velocities. The wounding capabilities had dropped off below the acceptable range. The all copper bullets were worse.
1. 35R, we are talking rifles here, stay on task.
2. Any bullet you can fire in a 30-30 rifle, I can fire in my 300 BLK. Add to that, all of the spitzer bullets available for use in the 300 BLK.
3. My comment about standing in front of one was supposed to show the fallacy of your argument. Your comments about the x39 round serve to reinforce it, since American troops have been killed at twice the distance you give the X39 round credit for in recent years.
You need merely load the 300 BLK, chronograph it, and work out a drop table. Zeroed at 200 the round has about a 7" midrange trajectory, and is less than a foot low at 300.
Back to the cartridge itself. The round was designed for heavy, subsonic bullets by LEO as a home entry weapon that would have plenty of ME, a large capacity magazine, and not have the overpenetration issues. A 240gr bullet/boolit at 1080fps has the same ME as the factory cast bullet 44 Magnum, a much higher BC, and there are thirty rounds in the magazine.
I expect most, if not all, reading this will go ahead with their plans to hunt deer with it. And do so successfully.
regards,
Rich
Sua Sponte
The comment about "Standing in front of one" has nothing to do with refuting my point that it's not a 300 yard deer cartridge. I don't consider "standing in front of one" a ringing endorsement of its long range deer shooting capabilities. A .22 long rifle isn't a 300 yard deer cartridge either, and I wouldn't stand in front of that at 300 yards. The comment was about deer hunting at 300 yards, not military combat where a wound, any wound, is better than a miss.
Hopefully "any wound" is not your mantra for deer hunting success.
We are talking rifles and cartridges here of the 300 Blackout persuation; I am most admirably "on task." If you want a moderator, please whistle one up.
Since we're talking "any bullet" and comparing the 30-30 to the Blackout, and some here give the Blackout somewhat inflated capabilities, shall I mention the 30-30 LE Flex Tip would put paid to the whole argument about which is best? Of course it is then superior to the Blackout with any bullet, but the essential point I'm trying to make is that the capabilities of the cartridge should be matched to the range.
For deer, and 300 yards, the Blackout is getting overmatched.
The 300 will take deer fine within its range. I did and will say 300 yards is beyond the range most proponents and actual users would rate it capable on deer. Including me.
Enough said. Go forth and slay deer. Having already used the 7.62 short Russian in a pistol which is the very same thing, I know it's capable. I just know better than to stretch it.
It does not fall short of 7.62x39mm ballistics.
Please see page 16:
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf
If I knew I was deer hunting at 300 yards, I would use a 308, 260, 243, etc - full power cartridges. 300 BLK is an intermediate cartridge.
But if you were to hit a deer with 300 BLK at 300 yards - the Barnes black tip 300 BLK ammunition fully expands and penetrates 20-24 inches of 10% ballistic gel, even from a 9 inch barrel. It would work fine. But again, you would not choose it for that role.
A better question is - who deer hunts at 300 yards? I have to drive almost two hours to find a rifle range over 200 yards.
I hadn't seen that .pdf before. Thanks for the link Robert.
It does indeed fall a bit short of 7.62 X 39 ballistics.....at ranges where the energy is sufficient to shoot deer humanely, which is 200 yards or less. I don't have a whole lot of difficulty in producing 2350 fps with 125 grain bullets in the 7.62 X 39 with 26.5 grains Reloder 7. Read C.E. Harris and see the velocities he obtains with factory loads.
The comparison favors the Blackout when ranges get longer, sure, but at that range where the Blackout pulls noticeably ahead due solely to a more streamlined bullet we're below the threshold where bullets work as they should in terms of expansion and energy levels are low......deer hunting suitability falters at those ranges. Wounding capabilities favor neither the Blackout or the 7.62 X 39 at the longer ranges for deer hunting as both are inadequate, so the relevant discussion about their capabilities should be at ranges where they both work. Not 300 and 400 yards........again, my comments had to do with questioning its claims as a "300 yard" hunting round, not the in military context.
I agree the Blackout is not the choice for 300 yard deer shooting. I have said as much.
I'm afraid the very narrow diameter "full expansion" of the Barnes black tip at 300 yards is reaching quite a bit in terms of comparison to 200 yard 30-30 performance, and trying to use that as a justification that the Blackout is capable a full 100 yards further than the 30-30 is also very questionable. The 30-30 bullet carries significantly more energy at 200 yards than the Blackout carries at 300 and the bullets expand to a wider diameter. Bullet expansion when hitting deer ribs and cottony soft lung tissue doesn't look like what a more dense, longer block of gelatin produces.
The hole the Barnes would make through a deer's lungs would be pretty small at 300.
It is commonly and reasonably posited that the 30-30 is a 200 yard cartridge. Presenting the Blackout as a 300 yard cartridge is lowering the bar quite a bit.......if the 30-30 just meets the threshold of a 200 yard deer cartridge with roundnose bullets (and it does, but just barely) the Blackout is well below that performance at 300 yards, clearly and demonstrably.
So it's clear that 300 is too far for the Blackout in terms of sensible deer hunting. Pretty much equaling the performance of a 30-30 (admittedly the 30-30 is handicapped with poor bullet shape, but still) when the ranges get longer is a neat trick in itself and something of which to value in the Blackout's list of positive features.
After all, it starts out with more than 400+ fewer foot pounds of energy.
But to make claims of surpassing the 30-30 in terms of range when deer hunting is a bit much. Calling it a 300 yard deer cartridge is also a bit much. Such performance is not reflected in the ballistics posted by the cartridge.
That's evident in any examination of its ballistic characteristics that has any pretense of objectivity.
Last edited by 35remington; 08-17-2012 at 07:11 PM.
Call me more traditional or old fashioned but I wouldnt shoot a deer even at 200 yds with a 110 gr bullet dont care what name is on it ,For me I would not fret much with a 150 gr cast FN bullet at 2000 fps ,about the same as what most load a 30-30 to with cast bullets .
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
To each his own. The 125 Ballistic Tip did pretty well at 2200 out of my .308" bore 7.62 X 39 pistol, I thought, in terms of expansion at 200 yards. Velocity was Blackout equivalent.
And for the record I do very much enjoy my Blackout upper and prefer it to my 5.56 uppers. It's a most excellent cartridge for an AR without having to buy new magazines for the higher performance 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. So for me convenience outweighs the superior ballistic performance of the other two rounds .
I just look at the Blackout's deer hunting capabilities with a little less rose coloring in my glasses than some here. I think that's to my credit. And the deer's benefit.
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Well it works on deer.
A 247g cast GC using reloader 17 cycles fine noise level is low enough ear plugs are not needed. Deer fell on impact. I love mine its fun and cheap to shoot. Dont know about range here all my shots are under 150 yards. So far that is the only critter to fall was going to try it out on some whistle pigs but have not as of yet. I have several deer rifles to chose from and use several but for some reason I like this one right now more then the others. To sum it all up I got one because that is what I wanted and really do not see the point in trying to explain to someone why. I also like short girls better then tall ones can you tell me why ?
Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon
The problem is that nearly everyone incorrectly assumes 7.62x39mm velocities are reported from 16 inch barrels.
Remington UMC BC 0.290 PSI, 2295 fps 16" - $12.00 a box at Midway.
Brass cased.
Hornady V-MAX BC 0.260 PSI, 2350 fps 20" - $13.80 per 20.
Steel cased.
Hornady velocity from a 16" barrel, according to QuickLoad, 2241 fps (based on 2350 from a 20 inch barrel).
At 50 yards, the 7.62x39mm has 4 ft-bs more energy.
At 100 yards, the low-cost UMC 300 BLK has 14 ft-lbs more energy.
At 300 yards, the low-cost UMC 300 BLK has 8.8% more energy.
At 300 yards, the 125 Match 300 BLK has 23.1% more energy.
I have run the numbers with Hornady, Winchester, and Lapua - in all cases 300 BLK passes them by 120 yards.
The Blackout passes 7.62x39mm in energy in the 100-120 yard range, and the Blackout still has full expansion at 300 yards with Barnes black tip bullets.
The Blackout expands to 0.500 to 0.600 - that is not narrow.
It would be a 50 caliber or larger hole, even at 300 yards, and even from a 9 inch barrel.
Oh my Lord. Wrong. I knew I would pay for making 300 AAC Blackout's standard SAAMI barrel length 16 inches when basically all other rifle cartridges are 24 inches. I did it to not falsely raise the velocity and be misleading to people who had the typical 16 inch barrel, but it has lead to a ton of people using that against the cartridge by comparing it to other cartridges from 24 inch barrels.
The 30-30 is a 150 grain at 2390 fps or a 130 grain at 2496 fps, or a 110 grain at 2684. These are from 24 inch barrels.
I can take one example - the 110 grain because it is the same as the 300 AAC Blackout black-tip weight....
2684 fps in a 24 inch barrel. Load that into quickload, then change the barrel down to 16 inches, and you get 2411 fps. The 300 AAC Blackout 110 grain is 2375-2400 fps from a 16 inch barrel. Very close.
With a 130 grain, 30-30 would be 2258 fps in a 16 inch. In 300 AAC Blackout, a 125 grain is 2250 fps - so you give up 5 grains of weight, but that is nothing close to a 400 fpe, and 300 BLK makes it up with better bullets.
Most of the wisdom on what range one can shoot a deer with a 30-30 is assuming a lever action rifle with open sights. People with 300 BLK generally have ARs with nice scopes and triggers.
Last edited by rsilvers; 08-18-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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