shot size for home defense

[35remington]

Objecting to the "poor pattern of 00 buck" is nonsensical at home defense ranges. All patterns are the same from all types of shot and buckshot.....very small.

Further, you have not shot any Flitecontrol Federal buckshot, have you? From my cylinder bored 12 gauges, the entire pattern of 00 buck is contained in 5 1/2 inches at 25 yards. This easily outranges conventional buckshot of any size fired from choked guns.

I didn't say birdshot "can't kill."

I said birdshot was unreliable compared to buckshot, and a poor HD choice, even at close ranges.

Those that professionally study the issue have stated exactly that.

Just setting the record straight. And yes, there are degrees of lethality. Birdshot is less lethal due to less penetration.

[429421Cowboy]

I am not objecting to any certain shot at HD ranges, whatever you shoot at room distance will be a fist size clump when it lands, the difference is in penetration as we have all basically agreed on in this thread is penetration, and birdshot doesn't meet the standard for drop dead every single time performance. However if i lived in apartment or condo i would feel very uneasy using something as large as OOB in my HD gun.
Secondly, i would appreciate you not making generalisations about what ammo i have shot based on what i have said. As a point of fact i HAVE shot Flitecontrol buck, and i still prefer greater pattern density, because the majority of work i do with my shotgun can't be counted on to be at 25 yards where i can center a hit every time, and i prefer the effectiveness of a wound from a denser pattern. I have spent plenty of time around deer camp in Michigan with family there and seen the sometimes unexpected poor results from good hits with buckshot on deer there where they are required to use shotguns, as well as during our doe harvest here, enough that we have switched to headshots because that few pellets, if your lucky to get them all in the vitals can't be counted on to stop, drop and roll a deer with a heart/lung shot. No getting around RB's as being a ballistically poor projectile. Yes, fired from a muzzleloader they are deadly, but they are bigger usually and you can place one precisely. I prefer to up my odds by using a higher pellet count and have yet to be sorry for it.
I agree that birdshot does not have the penetration, but dead is still dead.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Any human hit in any vital place with birdshot at close range will be just as dead i promise.

The problem is that if the intruder is also armed you will likely also be just as dead as the intruder is. Not much sense in shooting an armed intruder with something that will all, but guarantee he will be able to return fire before expiring.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Further, you have not shot any Flitecontrol Federal buckshot, have you?

I wish these wads were available to handloaders! Hornady is doing the same thing and they refer to the wad as the versa titewad. Hornady claims 50 yard turkey killing patterns from an improved cylinder choke! i have not tried them yet mainly because i have not bought factory shotshells for many years, but i intend to buy a few boxes and see what the fuss is all about.

[429421Cowboy]

The problem is that if the intruder is also armed you will likely also be just as dead as the intruder is. Not much sense in shooting an armed intruder with something that will all, but guarantee he will be able to return fire before expiring.

*again clarifying that i prefer no 4 buck, not birdshot for HD*

The deer i have seen taken with birdshot have never been able to take another step, it shreads and tears and leaves a far nastier wound on deer than OOB does.

However i feel as though this little discussion is too broad to do anything but make enemies out of friends... My 1 7/8 oz of copper plated 2's out of my full or x-full tube at steps will be vastly different than your cylinder bore pushing out 1 1/8 of no 6-8 shot at 15 feet, so really it's not an apples to apples type talk we find ourselves in.
From what i have seen the Versatite wad is quite similar to the Flitecontrol design, i just got ahold of some in the Superformance 8 pellet OOB load but haven't got to shoot it yet to have a report on performance, but if anything like the Fed it will be a good deer load this fall.

[35remington]

429, no one who has shot Flitecontrol 00 buck can reasonably characterize it as "lacking the pattern even at close ranges." A pattern that is considerably smaller than the vital area of the game shot at, as this shotshell with 00 buck produces, is quite reasonably characterized as very, very adequate, and it penetrates better than smaller buckshot.

So my statement questioning whether you had shot it, based on what you said, stands as a reasonable one. "Dense" it most certainly is if the pattern is small and all the pellets strike. They do with this load.

The feigned indignation ( "i would appreciate you not making generalisations about what ammo i have shot based on what i have said") comes off as less than sincere given that you misquoted me earlier. I didn't take offense at clearly being misquoted by you. I simply set the record straight.

The gentlemen that study these things and that have the bona fides to give an informed opinion do not approve of your ammo choice, even if it's #2 bird shot (again, see the link). Whether this matters to you or not does not matter to me, as it does not change their recommendations.

I've said more than enough in terms of good information, and the tone is inclining towards nasty now, including me. I don't wish to discuss this any further. It was entertaining, guys.

[krag35]

My old agency issued/issues #4 buckshot and Foster-type rifled slugs for its 870 Remingtons. I am here today typing in this thread because an assailant chose #4 birdshot instead of buckshot to engage me with at 26 feet (08-03-81, 2230 hours, Desert Hot Springs, CA). The bulk of the shot charge hit my patrol car's spotlight and/or glanced off the side of my left temple. 4 pellets hit with some effect, but I was still able to return 5 shots and connect twice (left wrist and plane of left palm, he was behind a dumpster firing in barricade fashion).

I use #4 buck (7 on board the 870) and slugs in a side-saddle carrier. Birdshot basically PISSED ME OFF, although one pellet penetrated the left browline--traversed the sinus cavity--and lodged on the inboard surface of the skull's brain case. So birdshot can have some penetration ability--but not enough that time, thankfully.

Well I now know, I am in good company, that is what my bedside 870 is loaded with.

[9.3X62AL]

"5-1/2 inches at 25 yards"? That's remarkable performance, if repeatable and reliable. I know my old agency is testing these loads at present, I'll have to call up some of my range rat buddies and see what their findings are. Our shotguns are 14" Rem 870s with cylinder bore, BTW--my own is a rifle-sighted 20" with Improved Cylinder.

[35remington]

Al, the comment from the guys at Federal is that the least choke produces the best patterns, as anything that "strips the wad" like a restrictive choke, compensators or porting tends to separate the wad from the shot earlier and increases the pattern size.

The shotcup has no petals in front, but rather in the rear. The wad "backs off" the shot more slowly and dispersion starts much later. At 30 feet it produces a hole that appears to be just one approximately .73 caliber circle......because the buckshot have not left the shotcup yet.

This apparently also produces benefits in harder targets like windshield glass as well. Not saying it can do what a slug does, but it makes buckshot in a shotgun more of an extended range tool than it was previously.

http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...lbuckshot.aspx

They also have a promotional pdf. I can link that gives gelatin performance and performance through barriers as well, with pictures. Look under the "wound ballistics" tab in the upper right once the page given in the link opens. I can say that it certainly isn't all hype. This would produce far more strikes on target downrange than heavier loads of buckshot carrying more pellets, solely due to the much smaller pattern. No need for choke tubes for defensive shotguns and buckshot any more. Reduced velocity and standard velocity are offered, and, apparently due to demand, now also in #1 buckshot. This is in response to the opinions of the learned that have suggested #1 buck is the optimum shot size for social use.

I have shot it in 18.5 inch and 20 inch cylinder barreled guns, so to what degree chokes affect it, as they have stated, I do not know. I also do not know how it would do out of a 14 inch barrel. I see it at Cabela's regularly now....at least the standard power, 9 pellet 00 load, anyway. I have not yet tried the reduced recoil or #1 buck version, but will do so as soon as I find some.

The rest goes into my defensive shotguns, and my bug out bag. For home defense indoors the super tight patterns don't seem to be necessary, but if I had a one size fits all buckshot load, this would be it.

[Longwood]

My first extended lethal range trials, were back in about 1957 when I was about 12.
I found out that a 12 gauge full of bird shot and pouring in all of the melted paraffin the shell would take made a slug that tore a limb in two that was bigger around than a Coke can at over twenty yards.
Smallest groups I ever saw from a shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfbrP...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46...feature=fvwrel

Shotcups had not been invented so this is what we did for fun as country boys.

All we had was a shotgun we had to saw eight inches off of the barrels because they sort of made a Y and because of that and the burned away stock it was hard to aim and shells we had very few of.
Probably a REAL good thing.

[Longwood]

One other thing to keep in mind.
There is a lot of difference in a home owner, that knows the lay-out of his home and cops rushing a door.

[429421Cowboy]

"You need something that will reliably kill or stop quickly at home defense ranges.
As has been amply demonstrated on this post, that isn't birdshot."
I apparently read too far into that statement of yours, and for that i sincerely am sorry, and i would like to add that i never directly quoted you as saying anything in my original post.
But i will continue to maintain that birdshot is certainly deadly, especially in larger sizes. I also will continue to maintain that there may be those out there in a situation that simply will not allow heavier buckshot, such as apartments, and they may have to rely on something entirely differerent. I have also seen birdshot kill at room distance with enough certainty that i would not want to be on the other end of the gun, nor would i feel terribly handicapped by having birdshot in certain situations. But as i continue to state, optimal conditions will be out the window and i feel something that packs more punch through heavy bone, clothing, or light barracade is ideal.
By your last post addressing me you are implying to me that you understand my needs better than i do, and should use the Fed's for everything and be happy, but in reality we here are all tinkerers that may never be happy with any one certain thing for all applications. I never entered this thread with any intention of disagreement, in fact i feel as though we agree on the important things here: Is birdshot a good HD load? Does birdshot have the penetration needed? Do Sheetrock and water bottle tests really prove anything valuble to this thread? I can say no to each of those things. But i think that birdshot is underrated as a killer, for instance a man successfully defended himself from a grizzly while pheasant hunting in Teton county, not far from where i live, by killing her with i believe three shots of 6 shot from his 20 gauge. I know that really proves nothing in this instance, but dead is dead! And i am also not foolish enough to think that 6 shot will be my new bear round, same as it isn't my HD round. We don't need to fight here, everyone has presented enough evedence (SOLID FACT AND TRUTH) not the least of which was presented by you, 35, to show that birdshot isn't the ideal pick for HD. My only point is that i would not condemn someone for using it if they felt like that was their only choice in their own home. However i do not think that using ANY form of low penetration round should be an excuse for being responseable for every single round a shooter expends.

In my testing, Fed is spot on in their advice against any wad stripping choke, i quit using Black Cloud due to my favorite tube having provisions to strip the wad.

[35remington]

429, all good points you make.

The thread was an opportunity to present information, and I'm looking at it that way first and foremost.

I don't know if I'll even feel like shooting Flite Control through anything else I've got with even light constriction chokes based on the reports of the wad in fact being stripped by the choke. At over a buck a shot for the Flite Control, or most factory buckshot, most of my practice is with light buckshot reloads using 9 0 buck cast by me for an economical 1 ounce load. 16.5 of Red Dot and the WT12 wad and I am all set.

I am not sure Flite Control is of any great need for the closer ranges. I sure am impressed further downrange though. Makes it less likely to need slugs.

The guns I've shot it through have been a 18.5 inch Mossberg 500 AT with 18.5" plain cylinder barrel, a Remington 870 Express seven shot 18.5" plain cylinder barrel and a Maverick 88 eight shot with 20 inch plain cylinder barrel. It does pretty much the same thing through all, which isn't too surprising. Way back when I purchased the short Mossberg AT barrel (well after the original gun purchase which had a 26" vent rib C Lect Choke) I gave serious though to having choke tubes fitted to the short barrel for buckshot use. The Flite Control wad made me abandon the idea but it would be nice to have more choice in buckshot size. The #1 buck and reduced recoil loads are a step in the right direction, but they need more variety for us nitpickers.

Now if they only made it with a 27 or 34 pellet #4 buck load I would find it a bit more useful for coyote hunting for when they run right in to the call and your rifle isn't "quick" enough. I suppose I could just use the 00 buck load but it seems more appropriate to match the shot size to the game hunted. The stubby 500 AT would be great to carry but the short barrel means it doesn't swing as well. I could get used to it anyway.

Maybe soon, I hope. I have dreams of swatting coyotes at 40 to 50 yards with a cylinder choked shotgun.

[mikenbarb]

Nothing wrong with BB or #2 lead shot if you can find some. Its great stuff and wont kill the neighbors kids if you shoot thru an outside wall into the house next door. You dont need a big pellet to kill something. A 1.5oz 1250fps magnum load of BB lead drops any coyote I shoot at 40yds with ease(And their real tough big animals in the northeast.) And thats only hitting them with around 1/3 of the payload. I have tested patterns with anything from x-full to cyl bore and they all pattern pretty good out to around 20yds and thats when the tighter chokes come into play. Theres too much scientific stuff with home defense loads but theres nothing wrong with using good old fashioned large waterfowl lead loads for the bad guys.

[Box13]

A fews weeks ago I traded into some bb shot with a board member and I have to say I am impressed with it in the few rounds I have fired....Robin

[rjh4758]

Get hit in the face with 1 1/8 oz of lead ANYTHING at 1200fps,,,and try to tell me that your not gonna change your plans,,,yeah, just go ahead and try!!!

I'll stick with birdshot. Its not about killing, it's about stopping the fight. True the birdshot might not kill as fast but it sure ain't going to feel nice either.

Why risk killing family or neighbors with buck shot. Slugs are even better than buck and at 20-30 ft you buckshot pattern won't be very big to call it an advantage.

If you do not need to worry about others just step up to the AR or AK. Slap a laser and light on the quad rail and your good to go. More shots with the AR/AK and at ranges within the home the shot gun pattern will give you any advantage.

[CollinLeon]

First round in my shotgun is BB, the rest of them are 000 buck... The BB is for in case it's a 4-legged pest instead of a 2-legged one...

[shdwlkr]

I have read through some of the posts talking about 25 yards and 60 yard shots and the threat is about home defense. You guys must have some really big homes, mine is maybe a long 40 feet and I know my shotgun load will do the job I need it to if called on to do it.
As to what load you use that is a person choice based on your own criteria. I researched mine based on my wants, needs and such and I am sticking with it.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i have to ask why anyone would bother with a buck load that only opened up to 5 inch at 25 yards. Might be fine in a situation that only allowed buck shot for shooting game but if i was going to use a load that only opened up that much at 25 yards i think id be better served by a slug

[Slam'n Salmon]

For years I had my shotgun loaded with goose loads. I think it was T size shot which is .25cal. There were 63 shot in each. I might have those #s off a bit but its what I recall.

I never worried about killing anything at 5 yards.