Further it is my understanding that shot guns are only used by LE when entering a home by force to breach the door with special shotgun rounds. Once inside the use .223 rounds made to leave most of the energy in the victim. Most the the time done at night under cover of darkness with night vision. They can see there target but he can't see them. They train to place good shots on target with innocent people near by. I don't . I use lesser rounds.
If you're figuring on shooting "more indiscriminately", God help you. You shouldn't have any kind of gun.
One is never, ever allowed to shoot "more indiscriminately", no matter what the loads in the gun. That is hardly an excuse to use birdshot.
Try practicing instead. The most important thing is that your first shot hits, and that your first shot takes effect. Practicing takes care of addressing the first issue. Effective ammunition takes care of the second.
The criteria for your actions in which deadly force is justified are the same as LE. One does not shoot except to kill. Warning shots or shooting to injure or birdshot loads will land you in court, or jail, just as likely as anything else. Courts are involved with the issue of whether your actions could have killed someone, or did kill someone. Here we are concerned with whether your rounds incapacitated your target in a quick fashion so additional shooting in your home does not occur. By your own admission, birdshot is less likely to do that.
If you can't "control what round he is loading" why are you choosing ammunition for home defense that is more likely to allow your intended target to keep shooting? He certainly won't be caring where his bullets go, yet this is somehow a justification to shoot birdshot? By your own admission, birdshot is more likely to allow this to happen.
Why are you choosing ammunition that will more likely require you to fire additional shots to produce the desired result? By your own admission, birdshot is more likely to make this happen.
More shooting in your home is very bad.....yet that is exactly where you're headed.
At home defense distances, (usually under 15 feet,) a shotgun is deadly, loaded with little bitty, or large shot, steel finishing nails, or even sawdust.
Give me a 357 handgun, loaded with a fairly light charge, under a stack of three soft balls, any day.
A long shotgun can be impossible to point in the right direction because of the plentiful obstacles in a home.
Most spooked women, will go into a closet, corner, or between a large object and a wall, where a long, hard to aim, shotgun is nearly useless.
"Further it is my understanding that shot guns are only used by LE when entering a home by force to breach the door with special shotgun rounds."
Incorrect. Even if it was, the pistol rounds they fire in homes prove that LE uses what they have on hand, with little true concern about the issue of how many walls are penetrated. Accurate shooting makes the issue moot. Effectiveness is essential. Otherwise, if birdshot was so ideal for home shootings, why don't you read of SWAT, FBI, and police regularly using these rounds? They don't.
Police enter homes with shotguns, rifles, and pistols. Pistol rounds are very overpenetrative. As are a lot of the rifle loadings.
Your arguments about LE being concerned about penetration of walls on home entry doesn't hold water. The average beat cop doesn't respond to a domestic dispute with night vision goggles on.
"They train to place good shots on target with innocent people near by."
So should you.
"Once inside the use .223 rounds made to leave most of the energy in the victim."
Buckshot leaves most of its energy in its intended human target as well.
"At home defense distances, (usually under 15 feet,) a shotgun is deadly, loaded with little bitty, or large shot, steel finishing nails, or even sawdust."
Credible testing has shown repeatedly that it is not sufficiently "deadly" with the wrong ammo. The sawdust and steel finishing nails comment has shown we've now descended into the patently ridiculous in terms of statements, which means this thread has pretty much run its course. Next it'll be mud and wasp nests.
Ill stick to what ive been loading for a couple years. 4 00 pelllets loaded in a 2 3/4 shell and the rest filled with #3 buck. It gives patern at longer ranges and at close range has the four big buck for penetration. had to shake my head at something totaly different today though. I had some buck loaded up in rounds i had the wad peddles cut to hold a bit more buck. I got the stupid idea that maybe without a wad tumble lubing might help. I shot a bunch into the pond out back and at 30 yards they hit like a slug. Id have to guess that there all stuck together at that range. I did remember that i put a pretty heavy coat of tumble lube on them though.
This is probably enough said on the topic.
FWIW, the use of birdshot is having less and less support as time goes by, even from the general public. The validity of using it started to be more seriously questioned a long time ago. The professionals that weigh in on the matter of its use have rejected it for any use in defensive shooting. Even in the home.
Just the way it is. What you actually use for yourself is up to you, but at least you've received good information as to why it is not a good idea.
Lloyd, your loading is a lot more sensible as a reasonable choice than birdshot, so certainly it's harder to criticize. The validity of the use of shot more suited to doves and pheasants than home defense is much more easily refuted.
Aiming in a life or death situation is not the same a punching paper. Seasoned LE empty there side arms and don't shot perfectly when your life is on the line. I want a margin of error when shooting in my home. If you don't that would be fine.
Most of my shooting come from hunting or practicing for hunting these days. I would consider my self a competent shooter.
By being less discriminating I mean I want to react to the situations much like hunting say rabbits, ducks, geese, or quail. When I hunt these animals I would consider this aiming. Just not the same aiming I do when shooting bigger game or a 10 ring where I have a lot of time to make the shot.
I have no way of practicing as you mentioned, in these scenarios, with a bad guy trying to hurt me in the dark. I am not sure how I will react. I am not sure of what the outcome may be. But one thing for sure I don't want to hurt a loved one myself with my own gun. His round as you said I have no control over. I can understand your point of attempting to stop him from shooting at all. But I see no sense in loading round which would make me hesitate to discharge in the home. This hesitation would be more of a hindering than the bird shoot. This hesitation is what I am meaning by less discriminant. “hold on Mr. bad guy move to your right 4 feet so I know I can safely shot you”
I don't suggest that the legal uses deadly force is different for LE than me. I merely add that they have standards that must use and are good ones. But all situations are different. The LE officials have to select a shotgun round to be used for all situations they may encounter. If they loaded bird shot and the range they found themselves exceeded 5 to 7 yards they would die. They don't have the luxury of selecting a round for my home I do.
Yes most police officer involved in a shootin use what they have on had. Most homes are breached by special teams wich don't use shotguns.
I do agree with turnmech in the fact that police need a load that will not only get the job done at point blank but need one that will also get it done at 25 yards or even more. Fineshot would really lacking for what they are trying to cover but at point blank ranges found in homes i can see some advantages to smaller shot but to side with the OO guys for home defense one of the advantages to the smaller shot sure isnt going to be that its easier to hit with. I doubt any load is going to open up much at 15 feet. I know though that i sure wouldnt want to face a shotgun loaded with anything. I wouldnt bet a penny that a guy would make it to the hospital with a load of even 8 shot in his belly let alone his chest.
My mistake,,,, I should have said,,, can be deadly.Originally Posted by 35remington
A blank can kill or severally wound at close range.
I was not recommending "Anything" in a shotgun for home defense and chuckle at those that think they need something that will "KILL" with the first round at 35 yards.
I can't even remember the name of the magazine, or the year, the first time I read that.
Many years ago and soooo many times since.
My old agency issued/issues #4 buckshot and Foster-type rifled slugs for its 870 Remingtons. I am here today typing in this thread because an assailant chose #4 birdshot instead of buckshot to engage me with at 26 feet (08-03-81, 2230 hours, Desert Hot Springs, CA). The bulk of the shot charge hit my patrol car's spotlight and/or glanced off the side of my left temple. 4 pellets hit with some effect, but I was still able to return 5 shots and connect twice (left wrist and plane of left palm, he was behind a dumpster firing in barricade fashion).
I use #4 buck (7 on board the 870) and slugs in a side-saddle carrier. Birdshot basically PISSED ME OFF, although one pellet penetrated the left browline--traversed the sinus cavity--and lodged on the inboard surface of the skull's brain case. So birdshot can have some penetration ability--but not enough that time, thankfully.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Al, I'm thankful you survived that. We all need a little help sometimes, whether from the One Above or someone else's poor choices.
Turmech, you should not feel carefree to shoot in any direction no matter what the gun is loaded with, and to think otherwise is a mistake. Since the situation will not be of your own choosing, neither will his response if you are using the wrong ammo. Ending the confrontation as soon as possible is always the bottom line.
You need something that will reliably kill or stop quickly at home defense ranges.
As has been amply demonstrated on this post, that isn't birdshot. If you want to use something for home defense that is more likely to allow the gunfight to continue, with the potential for more stray shots to go whizzing about your home, by all means, use birdshot.
To worry about your shooting alone is only half the issue. You have to stop your target from continuing to shoot back. He very possibly will be using something to shoot back that is far more overpenetrative than buckshot. He doesn't care where his bullets go. To ignore or downplay this while being solely concerned about your own shooting isn't thinking things through very well.
Longwood, I chuckle at those that think a load of #8 shot meant for shooting doves has the same effect on a human, even at very close range. Considerable time has been spent by those same experts mentioned to show it does not.
Anyway, for most of us, it won't really matter. For those for whom it will, one can only hope they get enlightened sooner rather than later.
Did not say it did.
I don't/didn't recommend a shotgun.
If I did use one for home defense, I would go more towards safety of other residents than on beng able to snuff someone at the end of my driveway.
I am satisfied that I explained my positions clearly enough to allow someone to consider everything when preparing for what everyone hopes never happens.
I never meant to imply someone choosing buck shot was incorrect. I agree that the use of buckshot is more lethal than smaller shot. I fact through many of my replys I have pointed out myself when someone responds with a statement of a fact which buckshot undoubtedly out preforms bird shot. There really is no discussion on which is designed better at the job of killing any animal the size of a human being. The discussion is not which is safer to shoot in the home to limit collateral damage to others.
The discussion is which one of the attributes a person values more.
I would never call anyone choosing buckshot foolish, misguided or reckless for there choice. I can see there argument.
Such thinks have been insinuated as well as shooting competency and ability to safely own a firearm merely because I have a difference of opinion from what is conventional. This debate has been going on for as long as I can recall in the shooting community. The fact that it continues today would make me believe I am not alone in my thoughts and they do have some place in the discussion.
Longwood, the driveway didn't even enter the conversation, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it, or "35 yard" ranges. Interior use in the home is all that is being talked about, and unfortunately birdshot is poor there as well.
Safety of the other residents of a dwelling has absolutely everything to do with how many rounds are fired.....by you and by your intended target. The fewest number of shots to do the job equals more safety for those same residents. Less effective ammo makes it very possible that more shooting will be done, with greater chance that someone innocent will be hit. The idea that birdshot will make your family safer from a stray shot is therefore very questionable.
Turmech, I can and do question the mindset of shooting in any direction with "less concern" based on the ammo used. In my own points on the topic I am simply backing the choice of professionals, and I note that birdshot is falling from favor even among non professionals like me. There's a reason why this is so.
Last edited by 35remington; 06-10-2012 at 06:58 PM.
I am NOT a hunter (not against huntng, just never got into it) but, living on a rural 5 acres with small livestock (pigs, goats and sheep) and poultry, with mtn. lions, bobcats and ratcoons, we've had some losses. The local Gov't. hunter recommended No. 4 buck in my .22LR over 20-ga. Stevens "behind the door" gun. The #4 buck anchored a big he-coon at about 30 yds, so I could finish him off with the .22 (No. 6 birdshot had just bounced off one a couple years earlier a bit closer in, and just made him mad!; I ran up and got him at 5-6 yds before he got thru the fence.) Based on that (admittedly very limited) sampling, I'm happy with No. 4B.
floodgate
NOV SHMOZ KA POP?
It is usally easer with any decision in life including this one to question the mind set of someone who disagress with you rather than just disagreeing with them. It tends to make one feel better with there own decison.
About 25 years ago i was dove hunting and toting a Winchester 1200 with full choke and 1 1/8 oz Remington loads (black shells) and i came across a big coon on a pine branch just a few feet overhead at the corner of the field. I shot him six times before he dropped and when i dressed him he had slug like impressions all in his upper body where the birdshot was hitting in mass at the close range, but there was no penetration. The shock (kinda like beating him with a hammer) and the head shots are what did him in.(No. 6 birdshot had just bounced off one a couple years earlier a bit closer in, and just made him mad!; I ran up and got him at 5-6 yds before he got thru the fence.)
I called myself some pretty ugly words for having fired the first shot of puny number eights at that coon, but i learned a lesson about small bird shot on that day. I don't care how many people put up dry wall with water bottles behind it and shoot it and call it good... i know better and if someone is going to choose bird shot for hd i hope it's at the very least coyote shot they are using.
Turmech, the points I'm making easily stand on their own. The "mindset" thing has no bearing on the correctness of those points.
First off, i find anybody saying that one type of shot, bird/buck, is more/less lethal. Dead is dead!
I have gotten away from OOB for almost anything except deer hunting as it is required by law here, it just lacks the pattern even at closer ranges, no. 4 buck is great stuff that will make a impression on anything even at further ranges due to the better pattern. That is what my 12 gauge HD gun is stoked with, or 1 7/8 oz of copper plated no 2 birdshot.
But i have to object to several things .35Remington has said, first being that birdshot can't kill. I have seen birdshot kill several deer at ranges out to 10 yards with a tight choke, as well as being pressed into putting down a 500 pound beef calf with no 4 shot in a situation with no other option, and in every instance, it did the job without a hitch. If you have actually seen birdshot at close range on critters, you will have not been left wondering as to the wounds given from bigger sized birdshot at close range. Any human hit in any vital place with birdshot at close range will be just as dead i promise.
That said, i prefer some range as well as some abilty to penetrate from odd angles, light cover etc.. I feel that unless slugs are used a shotgun is limited in assaulting anything but thin cover, but i certainly know that if i hit an extended forearm or other heavy bone covering the vitals with no 4 buck it will put a sure hurtin' on anything i think shouldn't be in our home. But i also wouldn't want to be shot with a heavy dose of birdshot at typical house distance in any world either, i feel it would leave far more than a flesh wound. But in our home we have properly secured HD guns, are all adults and have a plan for a home invasion to maximize our cross fire potential and minimize the amount of coverage in rooms containing other people.
Raisin' Black Angus cows, outta gas, outta money, outta tags, low on boolits, but full 'a hope on the Rocky Mountain Eastern Slope!
Why does a man with a 7mag never panic buy? Because a man with a 7mag has no need to panic!
"If you ain't shootin', you should be reloadin' if you ain't reloadin' you should be movin', if you ain't movin', somebody's gonna come by and cut your head off and put it on a stick!" Words to fight by, from Clint Smith
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