Recoil insensitive optic for hunting

[Sturmcrow]

I posted a few days ago about 454 vs. 480 or bigger. Though the discussion went a bit far afield I think it safe to say that nobody disputed that the 454 Casull has a bit of recoil.

I have never scoped a handgun, and would like to give it a try. I've searched a lot, but cannot find specific answers to my concerns.

I would like a scope that can handle heavy recoil, but would also be applicable to hunting squirrels on my MK III if I find I do not like the scoped big bore. I've looked at red dots vs. traditional scopes and am torn. While I think the red dot would work well for hunting, I am not unaware of the fact that I spend much more time killing paper than hunting animals.

At the moment, I am looking very strongly at the 1.5-4x from Burris as something that would allow field applications, and the ability to see the target at 100yds. However, the eye relief at 4x is only something like 14" (depending upon where I look, it varies). That's a bit short for my SRH. I do not relish the thought of a scope impression in my forehead.

Is there a decent, relatively affordable, variable power scope with at least 18" eye relief at high magnification that can withstand regular use on the 454? FWIW, it is the 9.5" model, so recoil is likely a bit less than some others.

[paul h]

The no longer produced simmons gold medal 2.5-7 was the standard for holding up to heavy handgun recoil. That and the leupold 2x are the scopes I'd consider.

[troy_mclure]

I like red dots for both uses.
Ultradot makes very good scopes with a great rep for handling heavy recoil. My ultradot matchdot handles the recoil from my ruger only .44 mag loads fine, the loads that have killed 4 other scopes.

[Sturmcrow]

Troy, do you feel that you can see through the Matchdot well enough for decent groups at 100 yds? It might just be me, but in my peep-sighted rifles I feel like I am guessing where the bullseye is that far away. I usually get much better groups than I expect, so I guess it works, but I do not feel confident that I am seeing the target very well without magnification.

Of course, that could be because I am coming from the 32X scope on my .243 through which I can almost see a gnats whiskers at 100yds.

[geargnasher]

Ultradot for hand cannons. You won't be sorry. For paper, draw a black circle 1 MOA larger ID than the dot at whatever range you shoot. Center the dot in the circle and squeeze.

Gear

[subsonic]

Magnification doesn't help you shoot better, only see better. If you can't SEE the target to align the sights, get a bigger/better target or some magnification.

Scopes with magnification, especially variables or heavy higher powered versions, have more weight to self destruct with as they are shook and slammed around on top of a big bore revolver. Most people have good luck with the Ultra-Dot and they have a good waranty for the original purchaser if you get a bad one. I have seen several 2moa or thereabouts groups posted on the forum from guys with Ultra-Dot's. A few tighter groups. For a target, I like a black dot that is about 2x the size of the red dot, but whatever works for your eye is best for you.

[44man]

Ultra Dot for sure. I use the standard 4 minute with no adjustments on all of my revolvers. The very best for hunting there is.
To shoot good groups even to 200 yards you just need to pick the right target.
I shoot just as small a group as I do with a scope and only very small targets like a 20 ga shotgun shell at 100 will defeat me.
You will have a tough time seeing anything through a scope early in the morning or late evening, they are the original black holes. The long eye relief scatters the exit pupil light.
Any magnification at all will make you miss off hand because you see the shakes.
I take bottles of water off the 100 yard rail, off hand, with the Ultra Dot. I can NOT do that with even a 2X scope.
I love a scope for precision bench shooting or tiny targets but they will never go on a hunting gun again. I had to let too many deer walk because I could not see them or the cross hairs. They are only good after full light and you need to rest the gun.

[onlybrowning]

I like the Ultradot Matchdot because it has a 2MOA dot as well as bigger dots if you choose. It is also not eye relief sensitive. For scopes on a revolver, the Burris 1.5-4 is abnormally long. I have a 1.5-4 by Weaver on my Encore .308 that is nice for the money. I have a Nikon Monarch 2.5-8 on my Encore in .204 and had it on several big boomers as well but I typically feel a variable is too big on a revolver. Bottom line for me is: on a revolver a 2X Leupold is a great scope. I also like my Ultradot. You could go smaller and get a Leupold Deltapoint if you like simple. Very light and no turning it on and off. Burris makes (as well as others) a Weaver adapter that allows the attachment of the Deltapoint where the Ruger ring was.


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[44man]

I have steered away from the heads up stuff because many mounts depend on one screw through a base slot, they can shear or break.
They are open to rain and snow too.
Then the cost is stupid for some. Some cost half the price of the gun or more.
I use the front extension on my Ultra Dots to keep weather out.
Don't ask me to list what I have destroyed just on the .44. The Ultra Dot has withstood thousands of rounds though my .475 and .500 JRH.

[paul h]

Magnification doesn't help you shoot better, only see better. If you can't SEE the target to align the sights, get a bigger/better target or some magnification.

Scopes with magnification, especially variables or heavy higher powered versions, have more weight to self destruct with as they are shook and slammed around on top of a big bore revolver. Most people have good luck with the Ultra-Dot and they have a good waranty for the original purchaser if you get a bad one. I have seen several 2moa or thereabouts groups posted on the forum from guys with Ultra-Dot's. A few tighter groups. For a target, I like a black dot that is about 2x the size of the red dot, but whatever works for your eye is best for you.

Having shot both scoped heavy recoiling single shot and revolvers, that has not been my exerience. A good variable will hold up to heavy recoil, and you don't always have a big target to shoot at. I've shot 1/2 moa with single shots, and I find magnification is even more important on a handgun as it magnifies your wobbles. Once you realize how much you are wobbling the gun you can concentrate on holding it steady to squeeze off the shot.

[subsonic]

In my experience, if you can finally keep the scope from sliding in the rings, ususally the reticle is the next piece to start moving around. This is with an expensive Leupold 2.5-8x in PRW rings (tried 3 different sets of rings before I found these that held) on a 10" .30 Herrett. I had the same problem on a 14" .223 with the same scope, and neither of these is what I would call a "high recoil" caliber like my .475 linebaugh or .500JRH, or even a my .45 Colt Ruger.

What hardware are you having good luck with?

[subsonic]

I'm not sure how much better the groups can get than the one marked 24.5 GD, which was 24.5gr of H110 behind a 400gr Gold Dot at 50yds. I knew I pulled one left because the dot drifted left just as the shot broke.

[44man]

Red dots are funny and it depends on your vision. There are no focus adjustments. A few people see a star or a full star burst. It still works for hunting though.
Scopes get funny too with the long eye relief. Adjust the eyepiece and it will change the eye distance more then the focus on some.
Increasing power will shorten eye relief so much you can have a tiny hole to look through.
Some scopes will blow their guts in 5 shots on a big thumper. Cheap red dots will lose the front prizm.
Some scopes are so heavy they will not hold the rings, others have soft tubes that skid and the tubes squeeze down like you stuck them in a vise.
What will stand up on a rifle can turn to a bag of broken glass on a revolver.
Scopes can get so funny a rifle scope can break on an air rifle so they make special ones for them.

[Sturmcrow]

44man, when you say that you steer away from the heads up units, are you referring to the smaller sights that are not tube shaped?

Thank you once again to everyone for all the replies. I am happy to see that the red dots get a lot of votes. I think you are correct that I need to get bigger bullseyes on my targets. I suppose I should not be surprised that I have to guess where that 1" bullseye is at 100yrds without magnification.

Now I just need to find an Ultradot and figure out how to fit it into a holster! I usually make my own holsters, but have not made one for a scoped sidearm or for a crossdraw setup (which I suspect will be best with that 9.5" long barrel).

I wonder if I could figure out a way to make a holster with a slot in the back for the scope rings to pass through, such that I could holster the weapon snugly even with the scope off, and maybe have some kind of scope cover held on with snaps. If I do, and it works out, I'll have to post pics.

Edit: Actually the scoped holsters about halfway down this page appear to be an interesting design. http://www.huntercompany.com/hunter.html It would seem that I could set up a sideways flap with two snapped positions to allow it to be looser or tighter, depending upon if I have the scope on or not.

[troy_mclure]

I had Lindsay Ross of Ross gun leathers out of south Africa make a holster for my ruger with ultradot mounted. He did a great job, and it was a great price.
To answer your earlier question, for 50yds(the mac I shoot with the gun) I brace with my bogpod monopod and can drill a 4" foam target all day with any dot size. Of course the 2moa dot has the best groups.

Oh, and I am one of those people that can't see a clean dot on a red dot, it looks like a starburst or comet to me.

[44man]

Sturmcrow, yes. Like the Trjicon or EOTech. Some of these are tough but you are looking at $500 to $650 for a few.
Even the Ultra Dot model has a very poor mount system.
I don't remember if it was Bushnell or Burris that I called long ago to ask about recoil and they said NO, not on the gun I wanted to put it on.
Before the regular Ultra Dot I bought a few Bushnell Trophy red dots. The front prizm pulled on all of them just with the .44. I had to take them apart and steel bed the glass back in. It has to be exact and not turned.
Some of these things only use one ring too, even with a tube. The Burris Tactical Speed dot is one, the Tasco Pro Point TS is another.
Many have large turrets and will not fit between Ruger rings. The Match Dot will not fit without a special base.

I just stay with the regular 25mm or 30mm Ultra Dot. Best bang for the buck you can get.

[44man]

I use three Ultra Dot rings on my .500 JRH. This is how it looks.
There are 5 shots on the paper at 100 yards.
It measures 1-1/2" by 3/16". The other holes are shrapnel from a steel target.

[RobsTV]

I use three Ultra Dot rings on my .500 JRH. This is how it looks.
There are 5 shots on the paper at 100 yards.
It measures 1-1/2" by 3/16". The other holes are shrapnel from a steel target.

Wow, that is excellent results, and if that doesn't convince people of how great a red dot can be, nothing will.

Your comments on the UltraDot is what most influenced me in getting the 1" version with Warne QD rings for an 8 3/8" S&W 500 (plus MkII 22/45 and 4095TS thanks to QD rings). Hopefully with some practice, and the right boolit combo, it will be as good at 50 yards as you are are 100 yards.

[oleycow]

I love my ultra red dot on my 454 raging bull, I have taken deer with it. I have had some trouble in the past getting the rings to hold the scope tight enough, i think I have it set now but I like the idea of 3 rings, that may help...I think I still have a long way to go to shoot groups like 44 man though, that is awesome!!

[44man]

I am not recoil sensitive but it is mostly the loads, not me so much. My vision sucks and my glasses are 4 years old or more. I have to move my head around to get a clear dot.
I just want to show that with a dot, you can shoot very well. But the very best place for them is hunting. Putting the dot on a deer's shoulder and getting a clean trigger break is just so easy.
A single shot for long range needs a scope and a rest but revolver hunting will always be closer ranges and I have found nothing better then a dot.
Once you hunt with one you will never look for better.