Winchester Rifles of the Hatfield-McCoys

[wv109323]

With the recent airing of the Hatfield- McCoy fued on the History Channel and a recent (to Me) Pawn Stars show , I am wondering about the rifles used in the fued.
The Pawn Stars Show I am referring to has a guy come in to sell one of the rifles used in the fued. It was a 1892 Winchester and had documentation that it had belonged to "Cap" Hatfield the son of Devil Anse. The firearm was supposed to have been used in the fued. Pawn Stars showed that the rifle had seven notches in the barrel for the seven people that Cap Hatfield was supposed to have shot during the fued. Also the rifle was supposed to have the name
"Cap" stenciled in the metal. Pawn Stars did not clearly show the name.MY research has showed that this rifle was a fake. The fued between the Hatfields and McCoys was over with in February 1890 with the hanging of the Mounts boy in Pikeville. No way could a 1892 rifle been part of the fued.
Another fact of the fued was that Devil Anse bought a quanitity of (15-25)Winchester lever actions rifles. IIRC the rifles were supposed to have been delivered in Ashland Kentucky from the Winchester factory. When I think about it this does not make sense either.
With no laws at the time why would the rifles have been delivered some 100 miles from the Hatfield's home? Why not ship them somewhere closer or directly to the Hatfields?
At this time did Winchester have distributors? Did Winchester ship guns directly to peoples homes? If not Why Not?
What model of Winchester rifle did Devil Anse buy? What was the caliber?
I would like to hear your comments.

[McLintock]

Well, I'd take what you see on Pawn Stars with a grain or maybe a big dose of salt. They bought an '86 Winchester one time, after their "expert" looked it over and were really proud of it. You could clearly see that it'd had the barrel shortened due to the incorrect distance of the magazine band from the end of the barrel and mag. Nobody mentioned this and it would be a very big deal to a Winchester collector.
So far as a '92 being used, I think you're right on figuring it was a fake. Probably if Hatfield did order rifles, they were either '73's or '76's, as these would have been the best Winchesters available at the time, possibly '66's as they were shipped up to 1898 with the last big year for them in 1891. But it could have come down to what ammo was easiest to get, 44 Rimfire or centerfire stuff.
McLintock

[EDK]

Not on the Hatfield-McCoy feud, but a lot of old guns were sold to unwary tourists in a lot of places.

Jesse James' mother allegedly picked up pawn shop junkers of the correct era and sold them to people who toured her farm/tourist attraction. Bat Masterson allegedly sold similar items and then told the victim afterwards. "After all, I owned this gun."

I'd want a lot of proof on authenticity on any such item. Besides the usual Civil War surplus items, I would look at HENRYS, WINCHESTER 1866 or 1873 or SPENCERS; I would not expect 1876 or 1886 WINCHESTERS. Handguns will be percussion COLTS, cartridge conversions, and possibly SINGLE ACTION ARMYS or various SMITH & WESSON top breaks or REMINGTONS.

You raised good questions and have done your homework. I'd add that the area of the feud was never a center of wealth for most residents at any time. Any guns are going to be pretty basic and used hard for a long time by people trying to eke out a living and not much money for luxury items.

[McLintock]

Just watched a recording of the Pawn Stars show tonight and you answerd youir own question when stating the feud was over by 1890, at least the shooting part, as the rifle wasn't made until 1896, based on the 134 thousand plus serial number. Could have been owned by Cap Hatfield, but wasn't used in the feud and the notches were probably deer or hogs he killed with it, or they were added later. Otherwise, pretty rough shape for a $1000 rifle, as the expert claimed; maybe a $3-400 one if that.
McLintock

[Hardcast416taylor]

As an aside about the intellingence exhibited on the pawn stars show experts. A customer sold Rick diamond jewelry after an expert said they were real. Turns out the $40,000 jewelry Rick bought was glass not diamonds. Still remember the Colt SAA that their expert said was a parts gun.Robert

[signsrup]

I've done a little research on my end, as Levicy Hatfield was my grandmother's great aunt. It seems they were partial to Winchester 66 "Yellow Boy's". There are photos that seem to support this. I think most of the early 66's were chambered in 44 rimfire, but I could be wrong.

As a side note, my grandmother was in her eighties before I found the family connection. I dug into it only because she grew up in Pikeville, with my grandfather growing up on the WV side of the Tug River. When I asked her about it, she was all very matter of fact about it, and didn't know what the big deal was. The local people knew the story, and apparently it was old news, so to speak.

[BPreece]

I just wanted to let all you skeptics know that the Winchester on the recent Pawn Stars is 100% real... That was my uncle on the show and my Great, Great Grandfather did trade Cap Hatfield a horse for that 1892 Winchester. Your "research" should show you that the Preece family (shown on the episode of Pawn Stars) is from Martin County, KY on the border of KY and WV, proving that it was very possible that he could have crossed my families property.

Anyways..... Kevin Costner just purchased the gun from my family for a pretty penny. Its gone and I am not too happy about it... I hope I have laid the issue to rest.

-B Preece

[MT Gianni]

Welcome B Preece. I assume that you understand that the disputation is not with the ownership of the gun but with the suspision that this gun could have been used in the feud. This would be like claiming a 50 Studebaker was used in WWII as it was owned by a war Veteran.

[ajjohns]

I agree with the above statements. Most shows you watch never (usually) have period correct firearms. Nowadays the shows are better and do, but in this particular show ( which I enjoyed so much I watched a few times) I can see being a few years off in the models used. In these times there was so much overlap as to new guns coming out all the time. Was that gun owned by Cap? I would believe it so. Was it used in the gun fight? Well by the years in question, probably not. Does it matter, I'd say no. If you have documention saying it was Cap's gun, there's no more truthful you can be about it.

[BPreece]

The gun was traded from Cap Hatfield's hands to my Great, Great Grandfather's hands. Whether Cap shot anyone with it, no one can ever prove for sure... but the story of the notched on the barrel was told to my Dad by his Grandfather when he was just a kid.

[Hamish]

Paging Molly, paging Molly,,,,,

[Molly]

Paging Molly, paging Molly,,,,,

(VBG) I've been asked to comment, since I had blood relations on both sides of the feud (according to my grandpa) and have been handed down a handful of stories about it that I related on a similar thread about the recent TV show. I suspect I lost a relative in the feud, or at least he never came home after working in his field, and a search turned up nothing but his hat hanging on a twig a mile or so from his fields. I believe there are a fair number of unmarked graves in the area, but for all I know, he just got tired of his wife's nagging and lit out for the West.

I have also seen and handled a Win lever action that was on display in the Charleston, WVa State Museum some 50 years back, and was labeled as having belonged to Devil Anse. No claim was made that it was used in the feud. I wish I had known to investigate it more carefully, but I was just a kid, and what I remember was that it was about the biggest and heaviest rifle I'd ever handled up to that point, and the cartridges were bigger (diameter and length) than 45-70's and dwarfed my fingers ... and I was a big kid. My best guess is that they were 50/110 Win rounds. Since I understand that the 50-110 came out well after the feud had simmered down to nothing more than bad feelings, I doubt very much if it was ever aimed at a McCoy, and certainly not during the feud period.

That being said, I suspect the museum staff probably checked out the provenance of the gun before putting it on display, but may still have records of it being on display, as well as the donating owners, if anyone wants to inquire. For all I know, they could still have the gun in storage somewhere. IIRC, FWIW.

[knifemaker]

Devil Anse Hatfield was my great grandfather. Needless to say I was not born until the feud had been over for over 50 years and was born in CA. and not W.Virginia. Most of the photos I have seen in books, and from family members show Devil Anse and some of his sons with Winchester 1866s and 1873s. The photo of Devil anse's pistol is a Colt peacemaker with the short 4-5/8 inch barrel. I believe it was in 45 colt caliber.

I can not give any information if "Cap" ever owned a Win. 1892, I have heard that he did favor a Winchester 1873 during the feud. The Hatfield's were like a lot of us gunnuts on this forum, they did not just own one gun, but would buy new ones as they came out and if they had the funds to buy that "New Fangled gun" that shoots further and harder.

Cap Hatfield used to use Colt single actions but later in his life he progressed to the double action Colt officer special when he worked as a deputy for my grandfather, his brother, in Logan County in the late 1920's. There is also a photo of Devil Anse sitting on his horse and holding his Winchester rifle. The rifle appears to be a 1873, or may be a 1886 as I can not tell for sure as his right hand is covering the frame. He is wearing a wide leather cartidge belt slung over his shoulder for the rifle cartidges.
The one thing I can say for sure, the Hatfields did favor Winchester rifles and Colt handguns from the time of the feud up to the 1920-1930's when they went from single action Colts to double action Colts.

[ajjohns]

Be all what you guys say is true, wow! Very interesting read on a neat family history. I love reading facts like this. What a country we live in!

[Superfly]

very interesting

[badgeredd]

My wife has been investigating to find out whether she is related directly to some of the primary participants in the feud. Her great grandfather was a Vance, and she has been in touch with several cousins with the same last name.

Edd

[.22-10-45]

Hello, everyone. Very interesting posts! What is amazing is all the ruckus that took place wasn't all that long ago. Perhaps the Indians had it right all along..they named it the "Dark and bloody ground, long before white men came to live in this area.
Anyway..not to hijack post..but related in a similar way..my grandfather came over from Italy in 1910..worked in U.P. Michigan copper mines until he heard of work at the Chevrolet plant in Flint, Mi. This was in 1917. Few years later..he started bootleggging..county was dry. Said he traded some homemade hootch & sausage for a S&W .44 No. 3 topbreak..from a fellow worker..who was from Kentucky. Said he wanted to get rid of it because he had to kill someone with it back home! I have this old revolver..wish it could talk!

[Molly]

Hello, everyone. Very interesting posts! What is amazing is all the ruckus that took place wasn't all that long ago. Perhaps the Indians had it right all along..they named it the "Dark and bloody ground, long before white men came to live in this area. ...

Yes they did name it the 'dark and bloody ground' just as you say. Have you ever reflected on what ELSE that says?

It says that like good folk everywhere, the Indians took advantage of every opportunity to slaughter their neighbors. That's a bit cynical, but it's also true: At that early point, there simply weren't any white men to fight with, except perhaps a stray settler here and there. Their motives for doing so are a trifle more obscure, but a little thought will bring them to light too: The Indians were in a transitional culture, moving from hunter-gathers and they had begun to grow some corn. But their primary food source was still animals taken by hunting. For success, they had to control some rather sizable stretches of land in order to have animals to hunt. The state (now) of Kentucky was a large part of what was primarily disputed hunting territory in the eyes of the Indians. And like humanity through the ages, they quickly resorted to violence when the other guy was so misguided as to dispute their claims. And the other guy wasn't slow to return the courtesy.

The reason that the European white man was so successful in taking over the continent was the lack of political unity among the natives. They fought and hated one another more than they did the white man (for the most part) until it was THEIR land the white man was taking. When that happened, their neighboring tribes didn't come to their aid any more than they had gone to help other tribes. It was a classic "divide and conquer", though I doubt if anyone of the time recognized it. There were some efforts by the more thoughtful and insightful native leaders to form nations from the tribes, but they were not very successful.

[crabo]

How accurate is the story as portrayed in the mini-series? I always thought the fued started because of the romance, but it looked like it was more about desertion and timber rights that started it all.

[joec]

I do know in Saturday's paper in Lexington they had a blurb that the Hatfield 1892 Winchester rifle was on display in Frankfort, KY. It was reported as being owned by William Anderson "Devil Anse" Hatfield. It is at the Thomas D. Clark Center for Kentucky History till the first week of July.