FYI WW properties. Not what you were taught in boolit school.

[MBTcustom]

I FOUND SOME OF THE TESTS!!!!!!!!!!
I was cleaning up the office with my wife today, and I found a pile of papers that slid off the back of my desk and low and behold, one of those papers was some of the tests.
There are six results here, three of them are from the alloy that I was developing, (we dont care about that because it doesn't exist in that form any more) but the top three were some WW that I had tested.
Sample #1:
Pb= 98.74%
Sb=.16%
Ni=.23%
Col=.35%
Au=.52%

Sample #2
Pb=98.97%
Sb=.34%
Ni=.21%
Cd=.15%
Au=.33%

Sample #3
Pb=97.94%
SB=1.10%
Ni=.30%
Au=.60%
Ga= .07%
These were some of the worst ones. Most of the ones I tested had about 1.5% antimony but these were extremely low. Some had almost 2% antimony, so I averaged them all together to get about 1.5% antimony give or take. I say again, that none of the samples I tested had even a trace of Tin in their makeup.
But, I have an overabundance of tin available to me at all times so I geuss you could say that I couldn't CARE-LESS what % tin the alloys have.

[zxcvbob]

The gold content is surprisingly high, and the zinc and tin are surprisingly low.

[Aaron]

Yeah, is there a way to get the gold out?

[MBTcustom]

Believe me, I tried. Turns out that gold will dissolve in molten lead very quickly and quite easily. I did some research to try to find out why some of the samples had gold in them. It turns out that a common way to strip gold from gold plated contact leads is to dip them in a molten pot of lead for a second. (don't ever drop your wedding ring in the pot fellas!)
I found strange deposits in other WW samples too. Some had a high percentage of cadmium. I was told that was from recycling battery lead (that was only a guess from a smart guy). Another one had a high amount of copper. That's why I said that I wandered if I could tell where in the country it was from based on the garbage that was in it. Each batch of lead had its own personality. What does this do for the hardness of the lead? who knows? but there is definitely some variance in what you get.

[John Boy]

Tim, thanks for the update on the tests. They are some very interesting alloy compositions - all which I never expected to see in wheel weights. Were all the tested weights clip on one's?

I can relate to a pile of papers which for me is very poorly organized. That's why with casting or reloading data, I either scan the information or type it into Word or put it on an Excel spreadsheet. All into the computer sub directories with regular backups

[MBTcustom]

They should have been clip on WW. Remember that the above results were one batch from some guy on S&S. I traded solder for the WW ingots. I suppose he could have been stingy with his WW, so he cut them 50/50 with pure lead and his wife dropped an ear-ring in there on accident, after the dog bit her heel.......
I just dont think most testing places set the machine up to read this accurately. At first, the guy at work set the machine up and it spit me out a percentage of lead, antomony, and tin. I asked him if the machine would tell me if there was zinc in the mix. He informed me that there are two ways to set the machine, one way is where you tell it what you are looking for and it finds out the average percentage of those elements that you asked for. The other way is where you tell the machine to give you the skinny on every winkin,blinkin,and noddin, element that is in there! I told him that I very much prefer the latter, and would he kindly run the test again? He agreed and I was pleased to find that there was no zinc in the mix, but a little bewildered by all the other stuff that was there. So I grabbed another dollop of lead from another batch, and another, and another. The results were different than what I had been taught in boolit school, hence the name of this thread. I asked the guy if the machine could be messing up? He gave me one of those "You're kidding, right?" kind of looks. He told me that he re-calibrates the machine every day as per procedure with a sample of known value that is kept under lock and key, and he said he re-calibrated it on the spot when he saw gold in the alloy. The general consensus was after all this, that with a WW ingot, you never know what your going to get.

[Defcon-One]

Tim:

Great job! I appreciate the information!

I pursued the "True make up of COWWs" about a year ago. That thread is probably still out there somewhere. I got a ton of good information and a bunch of abuse, like you feel you have received. Guys kept asking why I wanted to know exactly what was in there. I would explain that I make my own alloys and I need to start with good information to get exactly what I want in the end product. Good in, good out!

They would then fill a couple of replies with "why do you need it EXACTLY?" and "who cares as long as it shoots"...... "the target doesn't care"..... etc.

A battle over nothing trying to put me down and make my quest harder.

My conclusion was that some guys are just jerks, fortunately as you have seen here, most are not.

I for one appreciate any new information that I can get. The more I know, the better my alloys and my bullets will be. For me that is what matters and that is why I like to know exactly what I have. I enjoy it. I suspect that you are the same.

To the guys who want to just dump "LEAD" in a pot and cast it, then shoot it; Go ahead and I won't give you any grief. To guys like Tim here and I, thanks for the effort, it all matters to me!

[40Super]

Thats how I am also, I even have a four stacks of WW ingots that each stack is from only one "brand". When I was sorting a couple buckets for zinc or steel, I just made several piles that I would toss the lead ones one depending on the brand. I want to find out if any are "better" than others. I have one stack of "MC", one stack of "GM" , and 2 other stacks from those that had some sort of symbol. I don't know if I'll continue to or not but so far I have so I can get some big batches.
The rest are all just clumped together, It doesn't bother me to seperate them,I'm in no rush.

[odfairfaxsub]

i never really mind the hardness, whatever seems to be in the ww it seems to be just fine in my pistol/revolver when you mix it half and half and if you gas check the ww byitself it seems to be perfect for rifle. multiple batches of ww never really made a remarkable difference in rifle accuracy

[mold maker]

goodsteel, I to have noticed over the last 50 years that COWWs have varied from time to time. The current made stuff seems to be the worst in consistency.
I guess as the end of lead WW nears, the quality will degrade as they attempt to use up cheaper materials, or inventory, from their suppliers.
I checked a couple years ago, and it seems that the majority of WWs are made by only a couple casters.
If you've paid attention, we now see much more Fe marked WWs than Zinc. Reason being that Zinc is as expensive as Lead, and harder to cast with the clip. If they have to be assembled, it makes sense to use cheap iron stampings instead.

[handloder]

Dear goodsteel;
What standards are you using to calibrate your Xray machine? I assume you are talking about Xray Fluorescence Spectroscopy. Are there standards available from the NIST (used to be the NBS) today, or do you make up your own? Your inability to find minor and trace elements has me wondering about overall results.

[MBTcustom]

Dear handloder, check out post#81.

[MBTcustom]

and quit trying to start a fight on a friendly forum.

[MBTcustom]

and handloader has an "a" in it.

[handloder]

Goodsteel...so you didn't run the tests YOURSELF (from posting #86). Your data is therefore hearsay. I'm an American and can spell my name anyway I want. Tell your 'analyst' you want at least a three point calibration curve and a written report that you can post on this thread. Your results smack of 'garbage in...garbage out'.
I like friendly postings, too. But misleading data needs rebuttal...call it friendly or anything you want.

[MBTcustom]

Nah, I think I'll leave it where it is. You only consider it misleading because it contradicts something else you read somewhere. The information that got the numbers in your head now was not provided with a calibration curve, you read them and took them for fact because of the name on the cover of a book.
Good science there buddy.
Instead of slandering my character on public forum, why don't you have some WW tested and post your findings?
I figured lots of people have their lead tested and would contribute their findings to this thread and give everybody an idea of what can be expected in a random sample of WW alloy.
So far, there have been a bunch of folks who argue with me based on old information. The newest tests were done in 2004 which was 8 years ago. We have experienced a war and an economic meltdown since then.
If you are looking in a book that references information that was gathered in the fifties and are applying it to modern day you are on shaky ground unless we are talking about scientific laws.
I got news for you, the world has changed in the last five decades! We seem to have no problem with the decline in strength and quality of our entire vehicle but somehow you think that the WW's are sacred to the industry?
This post should be a reality check to those who are stuck in the past, but if not, well its just a darn WW after all. Its still going to shoot.

[PbHurler]

its just a darn WW after all. Its still going to shoot.

Exactly Tim,
We could all use assayed materials to produce our boolits if we "by God" wanted to assure ourselves of the composition of our alloys. (a little too expensive for my blood). Thanks for your efforts & contribution.

[Defcon-One]

Good steel:

See what I mean, this stuff just brings them out of the woodwork. You'd think you were attacking his religion or something.

When I did my research, one thing that I found out was that more and more wheel weights are being made in China and imported back in to the USA. Where do they get there Lead? They buy scrap lead here, ship it over there, make wheel weights and then ship them back to sell here. They save enough on labor costs to make all that work at a profit.

My understanding from my research was that they don't work too hard to seperate the Zinc out, they just pressure cast at higher temps. to get good wheel weights. So, that will be the next battle on here. Zinc content?


QUESTION: "I hand sorted everything, and I watched my temps. carefully, so how did all this Zinc get into my pot and alloy?

ANSWER: "The Chinese put it there!"


Things always change. The economy, the processes, the players (manufacturers) and the laws controlling this stuff, like the Lead bans in CA.

Right now we worry about Zinc in our bucket, later we'll all be carrying little bottles of Muriatic Acid and testing the lead that we buy like a cocaine dealer on TV. If it fizzles, don't buy it.

It is all part of the hobby. I find it kind of fun and interesting. I enjoy the research and keeping ahead of the information curve. But, whether it bothers you or not, those are the facts. Nothing is static, everything changes with time and conditions!

[evan price]

The copper comes from babbitt metal. Some of the high strength babbitt alloys use copper and I would say from my experience that the lead scrappers just throw anything vaguely lead-like in one large tub and call it "lead" so it is not surprising.
The cadmium is most likely from battery lead. It is used extensively in maintenance free batteries.
I would also surmise there are traces of bismuth and silver in there quite often.

[waksupi]

I will point out to new users, that there is a rule about adversarial postings here.