FYI WW properties. Not what you were taught in boolit school.

[master caster]

Sure wish I would of not melted all my really old wheel weights and mixed in the new ones. Figured I could have a pot of nice lead and put in some new WW and find the floaters easier that way. Now i read all this and wonder why. Looks like I got a blend of different ages. Thanks for all the info.

[MBTcustom]

The reason why I posted my findings on linotype as well, is so that you can feel confident about adding a little of that to "sweeten up" your alloy to original specs or close to it. You can depend on the alloy calculator to give you real numbers on linotype, and if you adjust your WW ratios, you can hit it pretty darn close.

[Roundnoser]

Thanks Tim. Great information. It didn't hit me until I read your post...There is no reason for the WW manufacturer to add tin to the alloy unless it in someway aided in the manufacturing process. It would make no sense for them to add tin "just because". -- Since I use COWWs almost exclusively, I will keep your research in mind if I notice fill out problems, etc.

[Dutch4122]

I think it's always best to get a hardness tester and test the clip on wheelweights for yourself. Last night I grabbed a cast iron biscuit pan ingot of clip on wheelweights from a smelt I did 2 months ago. I tested it on my Cabin Tree tester and it came out 12 BHN; which should = approximately 4% Antimony.

YMMV,

[MBTcustom]

Dutch4122 has a point, at the end of the day hardness/toughness is the most important qualities that we are after. It doesn't matter weather you get there with antimony, arsenic, gold, tin, copper or what, as long as you get a usable alloy.
However, I seriously doubt you have 4% antimony there.

[gbrown]

Again goodsteel, thanks for the info. Dutch4122 has a point, and it is a very good one, test it! Don't assume anything. goodsteel pointed out in the opening post that what you see is not, necessarily, what you get. If nothing else, that's the whole point to this thread, from my point of view. All those charts and calculators are nice, but the bottom line is the Bhn. I mixed linotype and "pure" lead. Did it come out as hardcast? No, harder. 17-18. As I have pointed out, and others, all the stuff we are dealing with is recycled. Who knows what's in it?

[Dutch4122]

However, I seriously doubt you have 4% antimony there.

I based my belief that I had 4% Antimony on the following thread from 2004 on another cast bullet forum:

http://forums.handloads.com/archive/...ts.asp?TID=364

The OP used a scanning X-ray flouresence spectrometer to test a sample from a 700 lbs. batch of wheelweights. His results as he posted were:

Pb 94.1818%
Sb 4.2431%
Sn .3751%
Br .031%
As .2723%
Cu .0534%
Ni .0246%
Fe .5955%
Cr .0442%
K .0312%
S .0069%
P .0094%
Al .0539%
Na .0776%

The OP also stated that this wheelweight alloy gave a BHN of "around 12" when air cooled. My clip on wheelweight alloy, air cooled, measured 12 on my hardness tester two months after smelting. The above list he gave for his wheelweight alloy lists Antimony at 4.2431%

Just thought I'd explain where I got the idea that my clip on wheelweights with a BHN of 12 must have roughly 4% antimony.

[MBTcustom]

Good stuff! That's totally different than any of the samples I had tested. Was there anything special about the WW you used in that test? I didn't test any big truck weights or old weights. If that was just regular WW picked up from the local tire shop, then obviously there is a lot of variance possible in WW quality.
Also, was there anything special about the place you got the WW's? Like was it your local Rols Roise dealership? (ie, was it the kind of place that might pay more for the WW's?)
Thanks for contributing!

[Dutch4122]

Good stuff! That's totally different than any of the samples I had tested. Was there anything special about the WW you used in that test?The gentleman at Handloads.com who ran the test would have to answer that question. He goes by the handle "rhead" and I think he may be or used to be a member here at Cast Boolits as well. I didn't test any big truck weights or old weights. If that was just regular WW picked up from the local tire shop, then obviously there is a lot of variance possible in WW quality.I agree that is very possible.
Also, was there anything special about the place you got the WW's? Like was it your local Rols Roise dealership? (ie, was it the kind of place that might pay more for the WW's?)Nope, the sample I checked on my hardness tester came out of 3 buckets obtained from a family owned garage & wrecker service on the north end of beautiful Flint, MI
Thanks for contributing!

Glad to be of help,

[hickfu]

I use a 3 (COWW) to 1 (PURE) mix with around 8 to 12 oz of pewter per 50lb pot smelting down to pour my ingots. I have never tested how hard they are air dried or water quenched but they seem pretty hard. I think i will get a hardness tester just to see.

Tim, great information....


Doc

[bearcove]

One thing that has kept me from getting a hardness tester is lack of calibration. I have a uncalibrated tester that doesn't give a number in bnh. 4lb hammer dropped on a 490 rb cast from an alloy. Pure smashes good, lino not so good. Then inbetween for others.

I've thought of making a stand with a pin in the handle and a height stop. Drop on rb would be consistant. Measure with caliper...

That would give as good of info as most testers I've seen in a casters price range.

[MBTcustom]

I like the way you think! I'm considering making a boolit guillotine tester. Works just like a guillotine except instead of a blade, it will drop a weight. That should get me a good reference for the toughness of a boolit. I think I'll make a special mold that casts a cylinder just for the guillotine. Then I could just measure the height of those aristocratic boolits.

[felix]

Tim, make the machine a machine to measure the practical TOUGHNESS as well as HARDNESS. Use a push through die mechanism using closely calibrated hydrologic measurements. The amount of force to push the cylinder through at a calibrated fixed speed would be called hardness, and the amount of cylinder growth (rebound) after push through would be called toughness. Ideally, the die should be a cut-off gun barrel, and the plunger mimicking a parabolic point (very wide and shallow) to emulate typical powder expansion results. ... felix

[bearcove]

dang felix, I read that twice!

But I think I'll stick to my hammer.

If you want a toughness test just swing it harder!

[303Guy]

If you want a toughness test just swing it harder!

Can you elaborate? Does that measure fracture resistance? Can one measure hardness and compare the hammer flattening to find a correlation, assuming a consistent hammer blow? What about a fast blow from a light hammer compared with a slow blow from a heavy hammer? A third test could be a weight with a conical spike on it.

[bearcove]

Drill a hole in the end of the hammer handle, mount so it hits test specimen when handle is horizontal. Hold the hammer vertical and let it tip over. This is very repeatable. Do test with 4lb hammer. Now make up one with a 20lb double jack. I use a 490 round ball out of a worn out thompson mold. Just cast a few while you are casting your boolits.

The 4lb will tell you hardness the 20 lb should give a good indication of toughness. I haven't done the 20lb test but now I'm going to make one to test the theory. My tests are informal. put a boolit on the anvil and whack it. I use a hammer a lot so its probably more consistant than it sounds.

Toughness would be indicated by less fracturing and cracks. By using both weight hammers you could adjust alloy to get a combination of hardness/toughness.

[gbrown]

Have ya'll seen Grumpy one's sticky up there with the Classic Sticky? I think its titled "Testing alloys of lead, tin & antimony. He made a pretty neat set up to test alloy. I think I saw a post on there by Felix. I thought it was pretty interesting reading.

[bearcove]

No, I been beating on stuff with hammers for so long I just carried on with it.

I will go look though!

Most of my great ideas were some one else's also.

Hard to invent something original these days.

[303Guy]

Here's the Link to grumpy one's sticky

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40767

[bearcove]

Have to go back and read when I have time. The hammer will stay cause its a very good calibrated eyeball test that can be done in about 5 seconds.

I also work with mostly unknown alloys and a quick whack gives a good feel for where I'm at.