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Thread: Recipes for "Mouse Fart" Loads in 30-06

  1. #81
    Boolit Bub saintdel's Avatar
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    I recently made the following post regarding indoor/backyard loads using round balls in another thread, but it seems to fit here, too, so here you go.

    "... I found my old note book from the early 70's in which I recorded my experiments using a 20" barrel [Rem 600] and found the following data for round ball basement loads in 308. Shooting into phone books,

    1g of BE penetrated 500 pages and was very quiet
    1.5g BE penetrated 900 pages and was still quiet

    I then held the rifle up to position the powder against the primer and

    1.5g BE penetrated 3/4" plywood plus 970 pages of phone book.
    2.0g BE penetrated 3/4" plywood plus 1000 pages of phone book, the ball being deformed.

    At the range, 25 yards,

    1g BE not accurate
    1.4g BE went into 1.5"
    1.7g BE went into 1.5"
    2.0g BE went into 1.375"

    I then later chronographed not the above loads, but rather

    1.5g 700X which clocked 675fps.

    None of this is to be taken as gospel as the total shots fired were few, but it is an indication of what can be expected. A
    longer barrel would call for slightly higher charges I guess.

    In any case, a 30 cal 43g rb at 675fps whizzng across your basement is not to be sneezed at. Do not underestimate the potential for damage or injury here. In fact, I strongly recommend you not try any of this [indoors].

    Having said that, I also worked up (down) basement loads in my .222 using pulled [or possibly snipped] .22 long rifle bullets, and then later wad cutters from a home made mold. [1/4 to 3/8" aluminum plate drilled straight through, pivoting bottom plate.] .3g of PB (yes, 0.3) was the ticket there. Later I tried 22cal pellets with some success. But again, none of this is really practical. Lots of fun maybe, but not practical. Like Christmas trees, all of these guns and calibers are a lot bigger indoors than they seem outdoors."

  2. #82
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    What's the advantage of using Trailboss?

  3. #83
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco650 View Post
    What's the advantage of using Trailboss?
    Bulk. Trailboss takes up more space than other pistol powders. Trailboss fills cases more uniformly.
    A light load of Bullseye, for instance, takes up very little space. Powder can be piled up against the primer or distributed the length of the case. That produces variations in ignition, velocity, and thus accuracy.

    One huge plus for some folks, is manufacturer supplied load data for reduced loads.
    The data sheet says a full to the bottom of the bullet - load of Trailboss- is your maximum load.
    http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

  4. #84
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbosman View Post
    Bulk. Trailboss takes up more space than other pistol powders. Trailboss fills cases more uniformly.
    A light load of Bullseye, for instance, takes up very little space. Powder can be piled up against the primer or distributed the length of the case. That produces variations in ignition, velocity, and thus accuracy.

    One huge plus for some folks, is manufacturer supplied load data for reduced loads.
    The data sheet says a full to the bottom of the bullet - load of Trailboss- is your maximum load.
    http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
    OK, I get it now. I was wondering if those using the pistol powders put in a filler to hold the small charges against the primer or just let them go loose inside the case. THANKS!

  5. #85
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    Fillers can work fine, but I'll take a bulkier powder with no filler.
    In one of George Nonte's books, he mentions a filler load that took the case from the shoulder forward, with the filler.

  6. #86
    Boolit Bub saintdel's Avatar
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    I have used small tufts of Dacron to hold small charges against the primer and it seems worthwhile.

  7. #87
    Boolit Mold josleynrm's Avatar
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    I enjoy reading these posts lots of good info and experience. I have played with cat sneeze loads in the past. I took a Lee .458 500 grain cast RNFP, sized it to .452 and loaded it in a .45 Colt case over a pinch (sorry can't remember for certain the powder and charge. in my notes somewhere) of green dot? Seating bulged the case a little towards the web, but it still chambered. The velocity was slow enough that the boolit was visible when shooting into the light. Fired these out of my Handi Rifle, and it was about as loud as a pellet rifle would penetrate 3/4 inch plywood at about 25 yards. Accuracy was about 4 inches at that range.

    Another thing I did and can't remember where I got the idea, was I took a 308 Win case, drilled out the flash hole so I could thumb seat a 209 primer flush with the head. I put 3 dents in the neck at the top of the shoulder with a punch and finger seated a lubed 1 buck. I fired these out of a cut down $25 Ishapore (homemade jungle carbine). It was quiet and an effective mouse sniping load for the shop. Of course the bore looks like a sewer pipe after firing just primers, but it cleans up easy and if a ball gets stuck, it's easy to push out.

  8. #88
    Boolit Man
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    Hi Larry,

    Thank you for the info on the 2.7g Bullseye load. I loaded some 30-30s for my kids with 2.7g Bullseye and the 90 grain Lee bullet sized to .3095. It shot great, and was a hit with the kids! I will certainly be loading more of them. The recoil was very light and fun factor was very high! It was a great way for them to learn good sight alignment and trigger control on a centerfire rifle.

    Blessings,
    Glenn

  9. #89
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    You might take a look at this page http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20R...le%20Loads.pdf and in particular read the top 3 paragraphs. I've had pretty good results with the 60% rule that Hodgdon suggests regarding H4895. This formula is specific to cast boolit loads and is fairly accurate and very easy shooting in a Springfield 03.

    smokeywolf
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.

    "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
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    "While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
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  10. #90
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeywolf View Post
    You might take a look at this page http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20R...le%20Loads.pdf and in particular read the top 3 paragraphs. I've had pretty good results with the 60% rule that Hodgdon suggests regarding H4895. This formula is specific to cast boolit loads and is fairly accurate and very easy shooting in a Springfield 03.

    smokeywolf
    Good info on that link. Thanks for posting it.

  11. #91
    Boolit Buddy elginrunner's Avatar
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    larry, in those 375's are you using a mag primer, or does it make a difference?

  12. #92
    Boolit Grand Master
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    While a 60% charge of H4895 makes a fine reduced load per Hodgdon's recommendations, a mouse fart load in the '06 it most assuredly is not. Staying on topic on stickied threads is a good idea.

    My own loading of MF loads in the '06 involves unsized cases and balls large enough to give a decent friction fit. Some experimentation in ball diameter, if you cast your own, is a good idea. Somewhere around .311 to .312" may work best, and varying alloy type may change the as cast diameter. Sizing dies may be needed in some instances.

    I most often use 3 grains Bullseye and accuracy is decent from 30 yards in but starts to be unacceptable much further out. This still makes it suitable for a lot of shooting. A coat of LLA suffices.

  13. #93
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    I was reading in Handloader Digest recently that Accurate 5744 works well and isn't position sensitive.

  14. #94
    Boolit Master
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    Sorry for the irritation 35remington. Could you please give me a specific definition for "mouse fart load"; velocity, pressure, something quantifiable. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice.

    smokeywolf
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.

    "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
    - Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

  15. #95
    Boolit Mold
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    Just for grins I loaded a few .243's for my stainless M77 Ruger using 95gr jacketed spitzers and a case just neck-full of Pyrodex. Almost no recoil and a muzzle report of a flat "plop", but actually pretty good accuracy out to 100 yds (as far as I shot it). Funny to see the cloud of smoke from a modern rifle... Several comments at range like "what the H-ll are you shooting???? (smile)

  16. #96
    Boolit Master
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    IMR 4756 will work in this role.

  17. #97
    Boolit Master
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    2 to 4 grains of Unique with a cast bullet will generally work with bottleneck centerfire cases.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeywolf View Post
    Could you please give me a specific definition for "mouse fart load"; velocity, pressure, something quantifiable.
    Not to get into the middle of a staring match, but...

    Loads variously called "mouse fart", "cat sneeze", etc. are generally defined as the quietest loads available in a given cartridge. The classics are for cartridges like 7.62x54R (the Finns worked up a bunch of nice quiet loads between wars), .30-06, or .303, i.e. the core WWI rifles, but you can create mouse fart loads for pretty much any rifle cartridge. Generally, they'll be either a very light or pretty heavy bullet; lighter bullets are generally quieter because it takes less pressure to move them out, and the original "cat sneeze" loads were round balls (i.e. about as light as you can go), but a heavy bullet well below Mach 1 is still a lot quieter than full power, yet still capable of much more effect than a very light bullet. They'll use a fast burning powder for position independence, clean burn, and so the powder is all burned and barrel pressure dropping off before bullet exit, and they'll generally be quietest in longer barrels because of the fast powder used.

    The canonical mouse fart load, then, is a round ball (originally, sized a little smaller than a normal cast boolit), over the smallest charge of fast powder (Unique or faster, with Bullseye or Red Dot being very common choices) that will reliably clear the bore; the result can potentially be quieter than a .22 LR, accurate enough for squirrels and rabbits, and with maximum carry (due to combination of low muzzle velocity and low ballistic coefficient for a round ball) short enough to be safe in places where full power rifle loads would be irresponsible. There are lots of variations on this theme that can legitimately be called "mouse fart" loads; the primary quality is low noise.

  19. #99
    Boolit Bub orbitalair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco650 View Post
    I was reading in Handloader Digest recently that Accurate 5744 works well and isn't position sensitive.
    Yup, A5744 is very good in light load conditions, I am using 23gr? in a 30-06 with 175gr lee bullet.
    Its clean burning even tho it only fills 1/3 of the case. Its very cool too, I fired 10-13 rounds before the cases and barrel even got a discernable 'warm' to the touch feeling.

    Its downside is its expensive. Buying bulk is still like $22-24/lb

    Bullseye is probably still a better 'value' for the really light loads as being discussed.

  20. #100
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Lee .311-230 Blackout bullet in .30-'06, cast from wheelweights, as-cast, unsized, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, no filler, Remington 9-1/2 primer, OAL 3.32", velocity 1058 fps,10Sd, 33ES. Is stable in common 10" twist barrel, accuracy equals military ball at 100 yards from my iron-sighted Boltgun using 7.8 grains of Alliant Bullseye!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check