Crazy Idea #12,000,000

[jimkim]

A few years ago I started loading 410 slugs using 444 Marlin brass, and 40 cal 175 gr TC boolits. I used a 10mm Lee sizing die to neck the brass down so I could crimp the boolit in place. This has worked very well, in my singleshot. The data used is published 38-40 pressure tested loads. They are roughly 1000psi less than 410 SAAMI max but with 38-40 brass. I use non-position sensitive powder. Initial tests were very promising, but the necks split after the third firing. To support the brass so it doesn't split, I now slide a piece of 410 plastic hull over the neck, and glue it in place. This round has worked very well and pretty much duplicates 38-40 velocities. I wouldn't try this in a 410 with a constrictive choke. Mine measures 0.395" at the bore, and I use soft lead boolits sized to 0.400". All of this has made me wonder if you could cut a 12 ga brass hull down to 2.5", and make a neck sizing die, and seating/crimping die, that would allow you to slightly neck size a case, then crimp a regular Foster type slug in the case mouth(just like a regular brass cartridge), and forgo the need for a wad. Just to be clear, this would be worked up, just like the 410 load. I consulted engineers, powder companies, and people with actual sofware, rather than just me using available Powley formulas. Has anyone done this, that y'all know of? I'm not talking about a highpressure slug load, in a highpressure rig. This would be for a regular shotgun, using a hollowbase slug.

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[bikerbeans]

I am no help regarding your 12ga question but I like your thinking on the 410 slug load.

BB

[17nut]

I did that with a bore size slug many moons ago.
The snag is that the case will expand to chamber sice and before long you have split cases from excessive working.
I then sized a case and made a brass ring to go on the outside and that worked, but got scrapped for lack of ease.

[copdills]

very interesting, will keep watching

[longbow]

Many years ago I was experimenting with short rounds using a Lyman Foster slug in regular hulls, not brass. My thinking was to cut the gas seal off a wad and load directly under the Lyman slug. Some worked okay, some wound up with the wad blown into the hollow base and some had the wad blow right through the slug! I don't recall having one left in the bore but I had several weird ignitions and saw slugs bounce off the ground not far in front of me so looked for them. They were lead tubes with a ragged end where the nose used to be.

My suspicion is that the wad tended to blow into the cavity and the skirt swole up to fill the chamber then the pressure blew the wad through the thin nose. Lyman Foster slugs are not Minies!

Later I had a reloading mishap using Lyman Foster slugs in a similar situation but had filled the cavity with cornmeal to keep wads out. I blew up a shotgun with that move. The remains of the barrel showed the slug had indeed swollen up to full the chamber at the case mouth and I suspect could not swage down fast enough at the forcing cone so the barrel failed at the chamber.

This should not be a problem with a solid slug or even one with a very thick skirt but be warned, bad things can and did happen when a Lyman Foster was containing pressure. I'll say any thin skirted Foster would be a bad choice for Minie style loading.

Other than the short hull and slug filled with cornmeal that was a book load so not straying far off the path of using published recipes. That load used was out of the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual slug section and used a plastic wad with petals cut off and PB powder which is pretty fast. I believe that removing the cushion leg has the same effect as a smaller combustion area (no give in the cushion) so can produce a pressure spike. I base this opinion on looking at loading manuals and short hull info. It does not seem to be an issue with slow powders like Blue Dot but seems to be an issue with faster powders used more for shot loads. It would take pressure testing to prove or disprove but I'd be careful there.

Longbow

[Ithaca Gunner]

You want a 12 ga. rifle that fires a full grove dia. boolit in a rifled barrel? Just get the mold from Accurate and hammer away. That said, I have the mold, the components and the rifled Deer Slayer barrel for my Ithaca '37. There are several threads here on the mold and set up, including load information. This and sabot .58 Minnie bullets are something in the future for me, after I get other projects done.

[jimkim]

This is the original 410 slug round. I don't size the neck as far down now. I would still like to make a full power 40-444 wildcat based on this.



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[victorfox]

Jimkim, do you shoot these from smoothbore? What abou accuracy and all?

[jimkim]

Jimkim, do you shoot these from smoothbore? What abou accuracy and all?

Yes it's a smooth bore single shot H&R. I haven't put it on paper, and have only shot it out to about 50 yards. It's a large target, but I can hit a coffee can all day long. At thirty yards, it hits (a steel plate) where you put the bead. I know that's not long range, but it wasn't designed for long range. It's for larger varmints I might encounter around the farm, or yard. I wanted something, a bit heavier and more effective than birdshot, to carry while I was squirrel or rabbit hunting on the farm. This fit the bill. I would love to see how it shoots in a rifled barrel.

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[jimkim]

I did that with a bore size slug many moons ago.
The snag is that the case will expand to chamber sice and before long you have split cases from excessive working.
I then sized a case and made a brass ring to go on the outside and that worked, but got scrapped for lack of ease.

That looks to be exactly what I'm wanting. Thank you for sharing. My splitting issue was solved by gluing a piece of hull on the necked down portion of the case. I have loaded a few rounds in the field using regular plastic hulls too. I load them using paper cartridges, and a few hand tools. They shoot ok, but I like how the brass rounds shoot, much better.

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[jimkim]

Many years ago I was experimenting with short rounds using a Lyman Foster slug in regular hulls, not brass. My thinking was to cut the gas seal off a wad and load directly under the Lyman slug. Some worked okay, some wound up with the wad blown into the hollow base and some had the wad blow right through the slug! I don't recall having one left in the bore but I had several weird ignitions and saw slugs bounce off the ground not far in front of me so looked for them. They were lead tubes with a ragged end where the nose used to be.

My suspicion is that the wad tended to blow into the cavity and the skirt swole up to fill the chamber then the pressure blew the wad through the thin nose. Lyman Foster slugs are not Minies!

Later I had a reloading mishap using Lyman Foster slugs in a similar situation but had filled the cavity with cornmeal to keep wads out. I blew up a shotgun with that move. The remains of the barrel showed the slug had indeed swollen up to full the chamber at the case mouth and I suspect could not swage down fast enough at the forcing cone so the barrel failed at the chamber.

This should not be a problem with a solid slug or even one with a very thick skirt but be warned, bad things can and did happen when a Lyman Foster was containing pressure. I'll say any thin skirted Foster would be a bad choice for Minie style loading.

Other than the short hull and slug filled with cornmeal that was a book load so not straying far off the path of using published recipes. That load used was out of the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual slug section and used a plastic wad with petals cut off and PB powder which is pretty fast. I believe that removing the cushion leg has the same effect as a smaller combustion area (no give in the cushion) so can produce a pressure spike. I base this opinion on looking at loading manuals and short hull info. It does not seem to be an issue with slow powders like Blue Dot but seems to be an issue with faster powders used more for shot loads. It would take pressure testing to prove or disprove but I'd be careful there.

Longbow

That's the exact reason I ended up loading without a wad. If I grooved the slugs, it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue, but at the time, I was worried about issues with airspace, or the wad knocking the bullet a bit cockeyed. It was an unknown value. I couldn't find a formula that would account for the wad, the thought of not knowing was too much for my nerves to handle.

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[longbow]

Wad or no wad, the pressure inside the hollow cavity is likely to cause grief. The thin nose could well blow off leaving the skirt in the barrel. If you reshape the core pin to result in a thicker nose and better transition to skirt then the slug would be more Minie like.

Don't forget that a Minie is contains in the barrel all the way and has a thick nose and generally fairly thick skirt with tapered core pin where the Lyman Foster has almost straight sided core pin , thin skirt and thin nose and it leaves a hull into a larger chamber then meets a forcing cone. Not much of an issue if you are using 2 3/4" hulls in 2 3/4" chamber or 3" hulls in 3" chamber but could be with 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chamber.

[jimkim]

I thinking a slug like the Lee key drive would be more structurally sound. I could always machine the plug and add a second brace(?) and shorten it a little. For that matter, it wouldn't be too hard to make one for the Lyman. Maybe doubling the thickness of the walls and nose would fix things.

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[longbow]

Yes, I think that would be a good idea. I suspect that a Lee Drive Key style (especially with two internal ribs) would not perform well as a Minie style boolit as it couldn't expand easily or uniformly but modifying or making a new core pin for the Lyman Foster and boring it or adding bore size driving bands should work well.

If the as cast Lyman diameter at 0.705" or so is not brought closer to bore diameter I suspect the bump up is too large and will allow tipping or uneven expansion. I recovered several Lyman Fosters cast from pure lead and shot into deep soft snow from smoothbore and they had all bumped up to fill the bore but every one had an uneven skirt and cocked noses. My take was that being so undersize they tilted as they jumped from hull through forcing cone.

A better wad column might help keep things aligned better but I am not sure how much better a guy can make the wad column from readily available hard card and nitro card wads. If you machine custom plastic wad columns then maybe. Easier to make the slugs fit the bore to begin with in my opinion.

If you want a good slug design look for turbo1889's posts. He posted a drawing of a 10 ga. thick skirted slug that bikerbeans (IIRC) has gotten excellent results from. I can't recall if he posted same design in 12 ga. but it can be scaled down. That one should work well as a Minie.

Longbow

[jimkim]

Thanks for your help.

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