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Thread: 308 Paper Patch

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If you unwrap a sized pp bullet and measure with a mike it'll tell you what your core diameter is now.

    By doing that and testing I found that even with my rough home hand made sizing die it halved at least the group size.
    The cores ended up different diameters all up and down the core from wrapping then sizing only.
    Can't be good when you start to spin them fast and not expect them not to go whizzing around in a big circle instead. Althou how consistent it might be.
    I second. That has been my experience exactly. Believe it or else, paper is tougher than lead under compression. The paper gets squished just so far and then it sizes the boolit. I believe a steel sizing die will be more consistent than a paper one dont you? Unwrap about 5-10 boolits and measure the diameter that the lead was sized down to. If they are being sized below bore diameter, switch to a thinner paper. If they are still over bore diameter, pick the smallest one and size them all to that size before patching them. Roll them under a file to "knurl" them, then patch and size.
    Another thing you can do is unroll 5-10 of your patched boolits and see how consistent the finished patch is in height. When I did this, I got all different heights of paper and extremely jagged bottoms from clipping off the tails. I started leaving a dot of exposed lead on the base of the boolits by rolling the edge of the paper over the base of the boolit, like 303guy does. then using my special tool to trim them to length. this created a much more consistent patch.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #42
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    I don't remember offhand who it is here that wraps .309-ish boolits and sizes paper/boolit together back through the same die and gets good results, but I never did. I think it was maybe our resident shrink?

    Gear

  3. #43
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    buckshot pmed me back. If my groove is .308 and bore is .301. What do I need to get for a sizer?
    Thanks 161
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  4. #44
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    Get him to make you one that will size the alloy you're most likely to use to .3025" or so. You can always hone it out if you need to, but I don't think you will.

    Gear

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Unwrap about 5-10 boolits and measure the diameter that the lead was sized down to. If they are being sized below bore diameter, switch to a thinner paper. If they are still over bore diameter, pick the smallest one and size them all to that size before patching them.
    I still think this is the way to pick your core diameter. The final sizing die is simulating the effect of throwing that boolit down the barrel. If all it has is paper, and there are no clear rifling impressions on the underlying boolit, you will not get a good result. By unwrapping the boolits, you get the inside scoop on what is happening as the boolit goes down the barrel. At the very least, you want the paper to have some purchase on that boolit. By sizing and unwrapping, you can clearly see whether or not your paper is too thick, or thin etc. In the perfect world, I want to unwrap my patched boolits that are .0015 over groove diameter and find a boolit that is .0015 over bore diameter. It doesn't matter what you size the core to if the patch sizes it less than that right?
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  6. #46
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    Right, Tim. The rifling also needs to slit the patch so it peels off like a banana skin at the muzzle, and the core needs to be the "anvil" that the rifling works the patch against. If the core is too large, leading, excessive patch damage, and inaccuracy will result. If the core isn't large enough, it won't be supported well and the paper itself can "slump" to one side when fired, and the patch might not come off in a uniform fashion, or soon enough, it if isn't sliced most of the way through by the lands.

    Gear

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Several of my guns have rounded rifling edges that don't slice the patch too well. The one I'm working on now does have sharp rifling and I have recovered a patch strip from between the lands. I'm sizing to just over bore diam on the bore-ride and just over groove on the base shank. I'm also finding bits of rolled up patch which looks like they got rolled off the boolit in the catch medium. That's with a powder charge showing good pressure. Maybe I need more of a slower powder - which I don't have right now.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  8. #48
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    I peeled a bullet that I had patched and sized. The core is .3025 .303.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  9. #49
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    Received my sizing die from buckshot yesterday. Sized some boolits last night. Perfect .3025 with WW.Got 15 wet patched an waiting for them to dry.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  10. #50
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    You tell buckshot what you want and that is what you will get, every time!
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Now we're talking! That should get you to an all new level.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    I went out last weekend with the 308. I had sized the cores to .3025 wet patched with graph paper, lubed and post sized to .310 and .312. Loaded them over enough Reloader #7 to get 2400 FPS. They shot MOBD "Minute Of Barn Door" At 50 yards. Came home and loaded some more over 23 gr of RX7 for 1850 FPS. These would make a nice little 5 shot bug hole at 25 yards. An I trying to push things to fast?
    Thanks
    161
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    I am curious, why .3025? You are not black powder, you are smokeless.
    50yds is also a little close. Things open up at 100.
    I about tore my hair out untill I sized to .308, then wrapped.
    That might be particular to my rifles, but it sure works for me. My final size is .309. The wet patch goes .317. The only lube I use is Turtle wax, just to make it easier to size to .309.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I am curious, why .3025? You are not black powder, you are smokeless.
    50yds is also a little close. Things open up at 100.
    I about tore my hair out untill I sized to .308, then wrapped.
    That might be particular to my rifles, but it sure works for me. My final size is .309. The wet patch goes .317. The only lube I use is Turtle wax, just to make it easier to size to .309.
    If you read the whole thread, you will see that with his particular paper, the boolits were getting sized down to .3025 inside the paper jacket. Not only that but isn't your rifle a 303 brit? Much bigger groove diameter than what we are dealing with here. I have no doubt that he could get away with a larger core, but then he would have to go to a rice paper or something thin.
    Also, I thought that the ideal combo was a lead core .0005-.002 over bore diameter, and a paper jacket that boosts the final diameter to .0005-.002 over groove diameter. Seeing as how the O.P. is shooting a 308 Winchester, I would think that this combo would put him real close to that very scenario.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    I have been following this thread.
    My rifle is a .308 win.
    I just tried all those sizes, and about tossed it in. My Enfield was driving me crazy! 20ft of berm! The whistling going down range.
    I took a chance, and with the .308, I got a sizer for .308. I then cut the patches after rolling them out to find length. I soak my patches, and use a cigarette roller. This squeegees the water out. They come out of the roller dry/damp and shrink so the lands show. After drying, I sized to .309. I compress the tail to the base.
    Once I got the lead cleared out of the rifling, I started getting pretty good groups.
    I can assure you, the barrel gets quite warm with patching! With my Enfield, I size the .303C to .308, then wrap and size to .314. This also works real well. It is a #1, and not a #4. Those are larger.
    I still have some sized to .3025, and wrapped, sized to .310. They are awsome looking castings, but they do not hit what they are aimed at.
    Good luck on this, once I got it dialed in, they got boring! I got a few folks at the range trying it. They haven't stuck it out, but they tried.
    Makes the bore shine also.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    I tried the 308 core, with the same results only a little worse. About 2 inches at 25 yards. And only after I slowed them down to 1850 FPS.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    161,

    If I may make some suggestions. Most of my hi-vel (2700 fps to 3000+ fps) PPCB effort has been with the 308 Win and based on what the NRA did on PPCB in the 70s. You can download a free copy of the NRA Cast Bullet Manual from Castpics.

    I would recommend the following:

    1. Size the bare CB to bore diameter or 0.001' to 0.0015" larger.
    2. Final size the PPCB to 0.308" D or 0.307"D. Reason? At the end of the NRA's work on PPCB, they found that if final sizing to 0.309" or greater the PP would be torn by the entrance diameter of the chamber's forcing cone when the round was loaded. A torn PP then gave leading and inaccuracy. With the smaller final diameter the NRA found that the PP tearing was eliminated, as the PPCB round entered the forcing cone entrance intact, and top accuracy returned. Dig up a SAMMI chamber drawing for the 308 Win and you'll see what I'm describing.
    3. Get into the habit, at the range, of dry brushing your barrel every so many shots. I've found that the felt resistance will tell you if your PP is surviving based on where the fouling/leading is located. Ideally, after every round fired the resistance should be consistent from chamber to muzzle. If you've got resistance in front of the chamber, you can suspect leading because the PP tore on loading. If you get resistance near the muzzle, most likely the PP is stripping off and not surviving the trip to the muzzle. Here's what can happen if you dry brush after ten shots. The first round could lead the barrel; the second round clean the barrel; the third round lead, etc. So for load development, dry brushing after every round tells you whether that PP survived its trip.

    Apparently, the NRA recommendation of a final PPCB sizing diameter was very significant because the NRA then successfully went on to compete with the PPCB to 1000 yds. My hi-vel effort with the 308 Win is now concentrated on systematically working up to 1000 yds; in 100 yd increments. I'm sorting things out now at 200 yds. and my initial results are very promising compared to others shooting jacketed match bullets at the same range. Also at my range, I'm starting to get more and more questions about these "magical PPCB". Life is good!

    The NRA' PPCB work has given us excellent guidelines to follow so that we don't have to "re-invent the wheel" again with PPCB. I hope this helps you.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Doc, Did you ever cut the patch off the boolit to see what size the core ended up being after going through the sizer? If your core is .308 and you size to .309, then either the core gets swaged down, or you are using paper that is .00025 thick. I'm trying to get my head around what you are doing, and I have no doubt that it works perfectly, but in my fuzzy perception it seems like the final size of your boolit must be pretty close to what 161 is sizing to. Not trying to argue with you at all, just trying to learn.
    Personally, I was unable to size the patched boolit to the same size as the core without tearing the patch and deforming the underlying boolit. I only got good results when I made the core about the size that it would end up after being swaged down inside the paper jacket. Again, I'm not trying to question your experience, (Lord knows you have much more than I do!)
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  19. #59
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    Docone, every time I've tried that I had either leading, or terrible accuracy. Just my results. The cores don't all seem to come out the same if I size boolit and paper together like that, and often the land height is too great and it slices through the paper completly, like shooting unpatched boolits without lube. It's amazing how much of this patching stuff is subjective to HOW you do it. You could probably make my guns shoot fine the way you do it.

    Last time I went out with my .30-'06 and 160-grain cores, I was holding just over one MOA at 100 yards at a chronographed 2,665 FPS using .3015" cores wrapped to .312" and sized .311" using 100% cotton vellum paper lubed with JPW. The trick is to balance the patch thickness with core diameter so the core is supported perfectly straight in the bore, yet the patch slices almost all the way through, but not so much that it leads. A case nearly full of really slow ball powder like Win 780 or even stick, single-base RX 22 and a pinch of PSB compressed by the boolit helps, too.

    I would think a person could get to the high side of 2500 FPS with a similar boolit in .308 Winchester pretty easily with the right powder.

    Gear

  20. #60
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    Today at the range the left group was shot from a clean dry barrel. 23 gr. RX7 graph paper ran through a 309 sizer end diameter is .310. five shot group. Center group trace paper final diameter .308 no post sizing. Six shots. Right target same as the left just boolits double dipped in LLOX. The others had one coat.


    This is trace paper with 30 gr. RX7. All at 50 yards.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check