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Thread: 308 Paper Patch

  1. #1
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    308 Paper Patch

    I picked up a 308 H&R. Shot some factory stuff in it with good results. Can't resist the temptation. LEE 309-170F two wraps of trace paper.

    [url=http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4615]
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Have you sized your bullets down from .309 before you wrapped them? What size were they at wrapping? Did you size them after wrapping? I/m just full of questions, but thats the only way I will learn anything I guess. Most of my patching has been on a .309 up to .314 with two wraps of tracing paper. I patch wet, cut the tails when dry, lube with Lee cut half in half with mineral spirits.
    I would like to pp for 30-06 but don't have a way to size the bullet down, to I would guess about
    .302 or .303 and in retirement don't have enough funds for the custom dies to size down. Your pic looks just like the ones for my Long Branch. Hope they do well for you.........Catch

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy handyman25's Avatar
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    buckshot prices are reasonable. I am going to have two made as soon as I find my micrometer so I can figure out what size I want.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The twist on the GC rebate might be a problem. I don't know. If you roll the boolit with your finger you might be able to form the patch on the rebate so it doesn't twist like that. I don't twist my patch tails - in fact, my patches don't have tails, they have 'skirts'.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  5. #5
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    catch
    The plan is to patch the .308 boolit then post size to .310. I sized some this morning after they dried over night and the trace paper didn't fair well had several patches slip. The ones I wrapped with graph paper look great. Don't take this thread as I know what I'm doing, just learning.

    303guy
    I see what you mean. These thing are tiny when you'er use to 45-70s.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  6. #6
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    For me, I size all my 30cals down to .3015 before patching. Works best for me.
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    So I've read threads where people say to size .002 over groove diameter, or as big as the throat will hold. My 308 has a .308 groove but will chamber a .312 easily is that safe to shoot??
    161
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If it will slide into the fired case and also the throat, it's safe to fire. The ideal setup is a chamber that allows a boolit to be a slip fit in a fired case, and also fit the throat. That way you don't need to resize the brass - just recap and go. Sometimes you get lucky with a rifle like that, but usually one dimension is off from the other.

    Oh FWIW, I have one of those 1916 Spanish Mausers built on a small ring action and rebarreled to 7.62 NATO. It not only has massively escessive headspace, but is of course very soft and weak. Not what you want to shoot normal ammo in. But I load it with a 150gr. paper patched boolit and IMR 7383 + BPI shot buffer and it duplicates factory 30-30 performance with very good accuracy and no pressure problems. You could do the same thing with 4350 or something slower too. Just another example of PP letting you do something you couldn't otherwise do! (Boolit sized .303", patched with 9# paper to .309, lubed with beeswax/vaseline mix.)

  9. #9
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    Yep, the paper will compress. I size mine to .3015, patch with 16# green bar printer paper. Let dry, lube and run through a .311 die. End product is .312. Works great in my 30-30. 3006, .308, & 300RUM. For my 303 SMLE I size the same bullet .304, wrap, and run through a .313. die. All shoot as good as jacketed.
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    Well I went out tonight to try the 308. Grouped somewhere around 3 feet at 25 yards with the trace paper. Huge lead deposit around the muzzle. When I got home after scratching my head awhile a realized that I seated the boolit to deep and the base was way past the neck and sticking into the case. I seated to the crimp groove, I hope that was the problem. I think the patch was being destroyed before it left the case. Running about 2375 FPS.
    161
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  11. #11
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    I think your core is too big and your patch too thin. Your theory about the patch being destroyed by the powder before it gets into the case neck might be correct, too, but I've done that before and not had any leading troubles and the groups were no worse than shorter boolits not seated so deeply.

    Gear

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Three of my guns and one in particular can take a boolit large enough to make chambering firm in the neck. That means zero neck expansion to release the boolit. No problem with paper patch but I would not do it with jaxketed or even plain cast. I do not load to near max at the best of times and here I'm talking moderate loads.

    Green bar paper! Where in hades to find some? I like printer paper but it is a little thick.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #13
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    I did have three that I used graph paper. They were 100 fps faster, I have no idea where the first one went but the next two touched at point of aim. First shot may have pushed the crud from the others out. That woulds maybe confirm your thin patch theory gear. Going to try some more today if it doesn't rain.
    Thanks
    161
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I did have three that I used graph paper. They were 100 fps faster,
    My first thought was why faster with different paper? Well, if the other paper is failing in the throat then that would be correct. I don't have any graph paper so I have no idea how thick or thin it is or even the texture. No doubt all graph papers are not equal. Would yours have a brand or identifying name? Any idea of the thickness in millimetres or inches?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #15
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    Well that didnt go well.. The target below shows my first two shots at 25 yards. They are the two in the middle. The next two were at 100 yards. I thought I was on to something. But they were the last two to hit the target. Dont know what was going on. The picture of the muzzle leads me to believe the patch was failing. I wrapped twice with graph paper. 303guy I just looked and can't find any information on the packaging of the paper.
    Last edited by 161; 03-31-2012 at 05:07 PM.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    The twist on the GC rebate might be a problem. I don't know. If you roll the boolit with your finger you might be able to form the patch on the rebate so it doesn't twist like that. I don't twist my patch tails - in fact, my patches don't have tails, they have 'skirts'.
    When I patch a casting with a GC shank, I just kinda gather the tail while it's wet and actually do the twisting after the patch has dried somewhat and gained strength. I also like to "break" the edge on the GC shank before applying the patch.

    BTW, Does the H-R actually have tall enough lands to cut the patch? Perhaps one will need to patch in the opposite direction of the twist like they did in the old days. I suppose I need to check with Matthews because I recall from his book that he loved the new Marlin 45-70 for shooting PP boolits.

    MJ

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    161, that crown looks terrible! That's gas erosion deposits. Have you check to see that the bore tapers the right way? The patch could simply be wearing out before the end of the bore. A thicker or tougher paper maybe or more lube on the patch. Maybe some fire-polishing even. It works and does no damage but it only polishes. It even polishes brass when it gets between the case and chamber. What's nice is one sticks a blob of the polish on the nose of the boolit prior to chambering and it acts like a lubricant. I've done it with paper patches to condition the bore so the patch survives the trip thereafter the patch itself polishes the bore.

    I suspect the rifling depth makes no difference other than the paper thickness it can handle. My best patch rifle has very shallow grooves from wear and somewhat rounded edges so no cutting. Well, it does seem to wear through the paper but not only on the driving edge but more so there. Sharp rifling behaves differently, literally cutting the patch.

    This one was with really blunt rifling. Higher velocity and the patch fragments.


    This is the shallow and blunt rifling.


    A bit more powder and it's cutting or wearing through. The next increment up and it confetied.


    This one shows the wear effect quite well.


    So I'm thinking the rifling depth and sharpness doesn't matter but it probably changes the optimum load or patch style.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-01-2012 at 06:14 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #18
    Boolit Master 161's Avatar
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    303guy
    That would make sense that the first 4 were accurate. I had used Ed's Red to push the bore out after the last shooting trip. Just patches no brush, so the barrel would have been lubed some what. I went out yesterday afternoon with some Federal match ammo and shot 3 sub MOA groups at 100 yards so I know it's not the gun or scope. I lube with case lube before seating the boolit. Could it be that I need the size .309 instead of the .311 that springs back to .312? My barrel slugs at .3075 and .300 as close as my bifocals can tell with another pair of cheater glasses on top of that.
    "Some times it's just better to smile an walk away."
    -161

    "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
    -Butch Cassidy & the Sun-dance Kid

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Paper Type

    Hi
    pdawg shooter Could you tell us the name brand of the green bar printer paper? There seems to be more than one brand out there. I don't want to spend a fortune on the wrong stuff.
    161 I know some have had success with traceing paper but not me.I got the same results as you. It's very tough and you would think it would work. Tablets of vellum are easily available at the stores.25% and 100% rag vellum is available. The 25% is cheaper and I know it works. Old typewriting paper is about perfect but now very hard to find. Copy paper works but is about too thick at 20#. To bad as it's everywhere and dirt cheap.
    n.h.schmidt

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go changing the size just yet. If four shoot well then it goes south it means its not the boolit. I have had patches not surviving the bore trip. I fire-lapped and fire-polished until the bore was smooth enough then the patch survived. That was a rusty rough bore.

    I don't have much experience with new bores as the only ones I've shot with only saw jaxketeds. The one definitely smoothed up from the chamber end. Copper fouling used to be bore length but became a end of bore thing. Leading also occurred only where the bore roughened. A bronze brush would run smoothly from the muzzle then become rougher and stiffer to push through (it used to be stiff and noisy all the way). This bore is going to get fire-polished just a soon as I get a round toowit. I got it new. It's pretty accurate for a 303 Brit with j's.

    So, what I'm suggesting is that the bore might be too new or isn't smooth enough or more lube is indicated. As I've said, the fire-polishing won't do any harm. Depending on the throat itself i.e. tooling marks, fire-lapping might be indicated just to 'break' the sharp edges.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check