Perhaps a minute amount, unless you walk off and it catches fire.
I have weighed it, target weight decreased by around 2grs and I dont think that is much of anything.
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Perhaps a minute amount, unless you walk off and it catches fire.
I have weighed it, target weight decreased by around 2grs and I dont think that is much of anything.
If you do not stand for something, you stand for nothing.
You can't spell "restore" with h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.
It's the results on the target that counts, Jeff. Always! Anything you personally contribute counts just as well towards this project, and that includes any smoke material or not! A multitude of ideas, off the wall or not, make all the difference in cutting down time to the realization of a great general purpose formula. ... felix
felix
I don't know what kind of beeswax you're using, but I've never seen one that didn't scorch to buggary at anything over 300F. At about 350F it bursts into flame.
One of the keys to working with stearates in a lube, if you want the full gelling effect, is to utilize an ingredient that can take the heat. Vaseline, slack wax, and the various micro waxes are excellent for gelling stearates, as they barely even smoke at 450-475 which is what's needed to melt many of the stearates to the gel point. Once you gel the stuff, it can be cooled to a more beeswax-friendly temperture and blended together without scorching anything.
Gear
Jeff, I appreciate the information. Sadly, t makes me have more questions, not fewer!
I do wonder if we have somewhat different needs though. I want a lube that is pretty temp indifferent and that gives me many, many shots without cleaning. Extreme accuracy isn't always a top priority and velocity over 2000 isn't either. I want accuracy that is acceptable but it need not be a tack driver.
What kind of trade offs are we willing to make? Are we willing to give p long strings with accuracy for better temp stability or accuracy?
Is some of this a difference between a target shooter and a casual shooter/hunter?
The "recipe" you posted sure does open a few more cans of worms.
That is why I am up to formula 170 something... I too am in a similar quest. Mine is for first shot accuracy for hunting applications. If I have a 400 lb boar charging me I need to be confident that my shot will go when I aim, not 3" off. There is no way with a 1/2 a foot will this old man out run one of those buggers. And I dont climb trees, aint a monkey.
Gear
I didnt say to melt all of the ingredients at 400, it is cooked after all of the ingredients are melted at 350 to 400, you want a light smoke, when cooking, I have measured weights before and after and I lost around 2 grs. Not a significant amount in my opinion.
The melting temp increased with the sodium stearate, and adding magnesium or other stearate in addition will alter the melting temp again. May not be by very much, but it will alter it.
I dont look at unsuccessful attempts as failure, I look at it that I have discovered another way not to do it. No big deal.
I dont need speed, I need accuracy, better one place shot rather than a spray of bullets.
When I make Voodoo red I quit heating when the mix looks like clotted blood, and that is a very accurate description. I have gone as far as 40 shots without cleaning in a match that I won in my class.
If you guys are looking to have the lube liquify under pressure, that is where the cetyl esters NF comes into play. It is used in lipstick and is the main carrier. There is a lube called MTL that uses this as their main carrier, but they use a base grease that contains PTFE and that junk burns and builds up in the barrel. Especially in the throat area.
Felix trust me, when I go to a match were it counts, I aint going to take home second place! I have won championships in several regional shoots and have taken second at the nationals a couple of times in my class.
If you do not stand for something, you stand for nothing.
You can't spell "restore" with h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.
Gear
I am using white beeswax in pastille form (easier to weigh to the grain), the last 50lb box I got was from Lotioncrafter. But that was before my last health crisis.
I generally like to make lube in the wintertime, easier to get out of the molds and I will make a couple of hundred lbs in a week.
If you do not stand for something, you stand for nothing.
You can't spell "restore" with h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.
It certainly is refreshing to here from a guy who has been there and done that.
Most of our problem is we don't really know what we want the lube to actually do. Lots of ideas, experience-backed theories and opinions, but really, nobody knows for certain how, when, or IF we want a lube to actually all melt when fired. The least viscous component of the old NRA formula (at room temp) is vaseline, and according to tribologists formulas that should be good only for low-speed bearings, not high-speed boolits, but it works anyway. All the rules of machinery lubrication are pretty much out the window with boolits and barrels.
The closest analogy in industry I can come up with that has lubrication standards well established is the plain babbit-alloy bearing. Rules say that low-speed babbit needs very heavy, usually sodium-based brick grease with a super-thick base oil. High speed babbit needs light oil under pressure, usually about 10 psi per 1000 rpm shaft speed to maintain sufficient film thickness to protect the parts. So low-speed needs tight control of a heavy oil film to work, and high-speed needs high-pressure flowing oil to maintain a fluid film while carrying away heat constantly. Is any of that close to boolits? Heck no. There IS no analogy. So we're completly on our own here. Once we figure out some parameters for the lube, it would be a snap to engineer it, like I mentioned previously we just give Bruce or Euctectic some numbers to crunch and a basic formula would be simple. But unless the same millions of dollars and hundred thousands of man-hours is put into the study of boolit that is put into the study of crankshaft lubrication, we're still on our own, trying to build the space shuttle with bronze tools.
Well, maybe not that bad. Take a look at Felix lube. It works well and does everything I need it to do except extend its performance through a wide enough temperture range without modification. So, I've been trying to figure out what the weak links are and fix them. We've been discussing a "synthetic" Felix lube for some time and I've made several versions but none that I'm happy enough about to test. Castor oil has a lousy VI. Lanolin gets sluggish in the cold. Mineral oil also has a pretty sorry VI. So, use high-VI, synthetic ATF instead of mineral oil, two-stroke ester minus the solvents for the castor oil, keep the sodium stearate for now, and use a different EP additive for the lanolin like Syn-Ester, purified lard oil, neatsfoot, sulfur ester, ZDDP, phosphorus (sp!), or something else, and it should work. The ester oil adds enough tack to the beeswax that the tackiness of lanolin may not be needed. Hopefully that would extend the lower temp range, but what about the upper? I want the lube to have a melt point of no lower than 150F, and 160 has been my target. Using beeswax, the only way I've come up with to do this is adding a higher melt-point wax like carnauba or high-temp microwaxes, or add stearate gellants that will keep the lube thick enough to stay in the cartridge even when the beeswax goes liquid. I'd LOVE to find a solid thickener like fumed silica, bentonite, wood flour, powdered paper, or similar that would hold the lube together to 500F or more, but none of those have worked before because they change bore condition too much or are abrasive.
Like Mike has said, the answer probably lies in a blended wax and metal-soap grease to get all those properties, it's just a matter of getting the right stuff.
I sure am liking some things about the CarnEsterBee, but it likely will flunk the cold test. Only time will tell. Lithi-bee with an ester-based lithium/sodium combo grease might work.
For now I'm going to keep doping out the CarnEsterBee stuff and see how that goes.
Gear
Gear's very first line above about sums it up in a nut shell!Originally Posted by geargnasher
Engineering a lube is the answer alright...... but to what criteria?
Synthetic Felix is a possibility..... but components would have to be VI improved and residuals uniform.
I played around some with the Motul 800 2T. It doesn't seem to have much solvent in it; I can't smell any either. I haven't reduced it by itself and I probably should as I want to look at it for a mold lube. But I did mix it with some sodium stearate (Ivory soap) for the heck of it. The ester oil seemed to take it in as it does most other components. So I make up a small test sample. It was 26.5% Motul ester, 8.8% dehydrated grated Ivory, 9.1% Alox 350, and 55.5% Beeswax. It was soft about like I like it and hand lubed boolits with just the right adhesion. A freezer test at 8 below was 'dug' out with a Popsicle stick and was firm but pliable and felt 'slick' to touch. Just for comparison I dug some Oregon Trail green commercial lube from a couple .44 boolits. At 65F it was more firm than the above ester formula was at -8! It was pliable some (I have strong fingers) and felt like hard putty with no lubricity felt. I had high hopes. Melt temp was a little higher than my BAC mix but not measured because amount was so small.
The Marlin .25-20 shot it great for about 15 rounds.... Then groups just opened up and stayed there! A new guy on the scene is a Savage Model 340 .30-30 with 6X scope and is an accurate cast boolit gun. It wasn't this time..... It didn't like this lube at all. So I shot it in the .38-40 and it shot fine! The .38-40 with the slightly rough bore remember? That rough bore keeps talking to us with its greater tolerance to lube changes..... WHY??? How about bore friction?
I give you an analogy to think on...... Compare our experiments to a high performance race car. We have tried several 'fuels' now that develop full horsepower. We look at intake and the injection system and know something is missing even though we develop high horsepower for a while. What we need will require the fuel recipe to change but what is it? The ol' 38-40 has hinted to us now for several lube changes! Our problem in our race engine is not on the intake side but lingers on the exhaust side. We need to modify our 'fuel' to condition the exhaust the same under all conditions...
Lube formulators...... "Look up your tailpipes for the answer!"
Eutectic
Ifi understand what you are saying you believe it isn't what a lube DOES that matters as much as what a lube LEAVES.
I have long felt that carnuba was a problem in the cold due to it leaving what I think is a hard film in the bore. Heat the barrel, and therefore the lube film, a bit and all is fine.
I don't think it is so much the temp of the lube on the bullet that matters, it is the temp of the lube residue in the barrel. This residue may, or may not, be the same as the lube itself.
Do we really know of any of our lubes leaves a film consisting of all it's components in the bore? Do the grease/wax lubes leave a waxy of a greasy film? Some of both?
Does your 38-40 with the rough bore handle things a bit better because the rough bore allows a place for this buildup to occur without "constricting" the bore or otherwise restricting free passage of a bullet? Reminds me of my old hipower barrel. Ifi really scrubbed the copper out it shot worse at 600 than it did once fouled a bit. I always felt the copper deposits smoothed up the worn throat a bit.
I do think the residue left in the bore is critical. Needs to be as consistant as possible. It shouldn't be something that can dry up and cause issues after on. I want someing that develops such a film fast. I don't want 3 to 5 shots before the bore settles down. It should shoot reasonably well from a clean, dry bore. This is different from a lube that shoots well froma fouled bore. Is this asking too much? Can we pretreat the bore with a simple ingredient from the lube to allow first shot accuracy? I think Gear has done this in the past. Using the lube itself may not work as the film won't be the same from a patch as it will from a fired bullet.
Eutectic, you got me thinking. It may not be just what a lube does but what it leaves. Awesome comments.
Last edited by btroj; 07-26-2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Added text
Actually, we have been saying that all along. That's why the paper patch works. All waxy stuff will leave junk that DOES harden over time. It normally takes about 20 minutes in a well established (smooth) BR barrel (starting very warm at most) for the typical felix lube to harden enough to cause a whale of a problem (BR accuracy) at the target. Therefore, taller lands definitely allow longer periods between relays, between cleaning. Yes, we are seeking a self cleaning lube first and foremost because that will satisfy most general purpose complaints. Really, cold barrel shooting should be secondary in design because no-body cares for real in that we all need a warm up to the gun and application on-hand. Varmint shooting MIGHT be the only condition of note for using a truly cold barrel per shot. But...the bet remains that a cold barrel lube will also allow a more than reasonable break time allowance between relays. End of day required cleaning would be OK if need be. ... felix
Last edited by felix; 07-26-2012 at 11:58 AM.
felix
For as long as I have been making lube I have never found one so far that I would consider a "fit all" lube. Despite claims cold weather will mess with even the best lube in the world. Cold shot build up is and has always been an issue. Maybe we need to make one with bengay in it to warm it up<G>
Lube is a matter of personal preference in my opinion. One that works for a given purpose, my not work for another.
Isnt that the quest we are all after?
If you do not stand for something, you stand for nothing.
You can't spell "restore" with h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.
The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.
Aspercreme would be a better choice, no odor!
Yes, it is going to be a somewhat individualized choice. The very fax that MMl was designed to handle cold that would keep Gear inside shows that.
I am after lube that will give first shot accuracy from my Marlin 32-20 in cold weather. I have not trid MMl much at this point, need to wait for cold weather to return, if if ever does! That gun has been the pickiest I have to lube and temp changes.
As a plinker and hunter my needs ARE different from those of a BR shooter. Very different. I want a lube that maintain acceptable accuracy for hundreds of shots. I want it to group well when fired one shot every 5 minutes in cold weather. Squirrels aren't that big so a 1 inch out flyer at 50 yards won't hack it. Cold barrel will be the norm on tree rats too.
Getting a general agreement on what "properties" are required may well be the greatest challenge!
Nut flour.I'd LOVE to find a solid thickener like fumed silica, bentonite, wood flour, powdered paper, or similar that would hold the lube together to 500FEspecially when combined with powder and lead residue. I'm still trying to figure out what that black gunk is, lead oxides aren't grey or black. Machinery lubes and bullet lubes have different requirements. Bullet lube must remain a lube at bbl temp and pressure, velocity/friction are part of the previous.. It shouldn't leave anything but a molecule layer in the bore. If a 'carrier' is used, it must adhere to the same rules. The release of lube from a carrier must be the same for all conditions. i.e. temp and pressure. The purpose of the carrier is to contain the lube during application, storage and loading. All of the lube should stay on the CB to the target, for best accuracy. If not , it should ALL come off when Cb leaves the muzzle. Can we agree on these requirements, as a optimum goal?All waxy stuff will leave junk that DOES harden over time
No btroj, I don't think so. The pitting isn't that bad, but it is there and it bothers me.... I am blessed as to how accurate this old gun is, even so!
It does creates more friction for boolit passage.... Another hint. The ONLY lube mix with ester this gun didn't like was EsterBee350.... THIS WAS ALSO THE CLEANEST ESTER LUBE TRIED BORE-WISE FOR FOULING. Too clean I believe to keep the .38-40 happy. Every ester recipe I tried basically cleans out the pitted areas pretty well shot to shot anyway.
What I'm saying is a controlled and uniform friction slide needs to be applied for our next boolit shot to shot, hot or cold, 5 minutes or 5 weeks later. Our lube has to incorporate this element in the formula.
I do know it's been mentioned all along...... I'm working to prioritize its sequence and the overall worth to us all.
Eutectic
OK, that brings us back to ZDDP. We need to permanantly alter the friction characteristics of the bore to a more maintainable standard. Bruce mentioned (here or in email, can't remember) that the ZDDP builds up only a few molecules thick on machined steel surfaces and pretty much stays that way, only so much will stick and after that it just slides on by.
I like the esterbee concept because it leaves the least film, in fact I think most of it completely goes away each shot, leaving a basically clean, dry bore which is the easiest bore condition to maintain under "all" weather and shooting conditions. No finicky "lube film" to try to keep the same all the time, very little wax polish to worry with cleaning out, etc. Maybe the zinc coating, once "seasoned", would work with a drier lube to maintain consistent bore friction without depending on such a delicate, persnickety oil/wax/fouling layer to do that for us.
Gear
Bingo... lube's not the problem your barrels aren't cast friendly! This offers an explanation why I never had fouling issues with my old Marlins with their .0045-.005" deep groves; i.e., I never had to clean them even though they were fouled.
I do have good news though. Out of all the lubes I've tested so far Gear's "Sulfur-lube" (I don't have the formula in front of me) is the only one in a long time that's not created a hard fouling after three days of sitting in the barrel after being shot. As you may recall, that lube was used to shoot my last targets in post 1029 (holy ****, that was four pages ago... you guys need to slow down)
I placed a empty 1 pt. water bottle over the muzzle and shoved the bronze brush through the barrel from breach to muzzle and there was absolutely no dust collected in the bottle. At least now we can rest assured that 4759 is not the bad guy behind the hard fouling.
Gear, what do you claim is the function of the sulfur ester and what advantage does it have over any other ester based oil, e.g., Redline Synthetic ATF or Drag Racing Oil? After all, sulfur is a non-metal; so, I don't get the philosophy behind adding it.Since you mentioned barrel harmonics four pages ago after I posted my last targets, I'm going to repeat Monday's little experiment with 22.5 grains of 4759. I was going to load 23 grains tonight but historically speaking, much over 1800 fps with RCBS 30-165-SIL from my '06 is a vertical stringing proposition. If the groups shot tomorrow are more consistent than Monday's, I'll post them. If not, to save space, I'll just comment.
MJ
That would need a bore 'fixer' not a lube. It would be a asset, but complicates 'lube' problem immensely. Put it in the category of bullet fit problem. Gear - aren't most of the 'polar' lubes the same in not sticking to themselves, just to metal?38-40 with the rough bore
Sulfur is an extreme-pressure and lubricity additive in everything from gasoline (replaced lead compounds), diesel fuel, engine oils, to lubricating greases.
The sulfur ester Bruce sent works together with the HTO to add EP and wetting properties to the lube. The HTO's effect is magnified by the sulfur compound.
The recipe you're shooting is:
1-1/4 oz. Randrat's hard, yellow beeswax
3 level tablespoons carnauba wax flakes
3 tablespoons R-134a polyol ester lubricant + Ice 32. ISO 100, 500 SUS @ 100 F.
1/2 tablespoon NA-LUBE EP 5415 sulfurized olefin/fatty oil
3/4 tablespoon Lubrizol Syn-Ester GY-HTO
So, there you have it. I'm interested in your results, mine have been good so far as well.
Gear
Well, I was with you right up to "3 level tablespoons carnauba wax flakes". The ISO 100, 500 is photographic film, right?
BTW, I smeared some "S-lube" on a couple cleaning patches to prep the clean (I removed all the soft powder residue) barrel before shooting tomorrow. I'd be interested to see if that procedure places the first couple shots closer to the "real" groups.
MJ
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