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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #2861
    Boolit Master Eutectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Was the first shot the cleaner hole? That's some great shooting and a good working system, even with the flyer. I'm hesitant to think it's lube because of being third and having similar hole appearance to the others, probably just a "ragged edge" anomaly, they do show up at high speeds occasionally because we're still humans. I assume you normalized between shots?

    Gear
    Yep....... 1,2,4 vertical bottom up. The barrel was already fouled and then fouled again the afternoon before with the identical load except it and the gun were basement warm.... about 60°! The heavier fouling is very uniform on the three -7°F fired rounds. This below zero C.O.R.E. is a different animal than we know at the moment. I know out of five groups from two guns that 666-1 is grouping almost warm day good! That 'flier' I posted for comments was the worse. I did normalize 15 minutes and will for 30 minutes when I bring the hi-soaps back even if its colder. Interesting too is bore condition with 2% Jojoba Oil. In good light I can see the reaming cross marks on the lands! Like the ester would do. I looked up the cSt numbers on Jojoba Oil and thought the 40°C and 100°C numbers were a mistake..... Then I saw the very high Viscosity Index number. So I thought it worth a cold weather try. I only had two formulas pass a shaky OK at -14°F two years ago. I think everything I've tested the last four 'cool' mornings might pass. It is guesswork on my part though; experience is the best teacher and I learn every steamy breath out there. Gotta be some Eskimo that knows something about this?
    I want a -25° below morning to see if the high soap or even 666-1 have any quit in them!

    Eutectic

  2. #2862
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    At 25 below I don't care if the lube has any quit in them, I know I do!

    You are truly the man in my book. I can't imagine anyone else WANTING 25 below just to test a lube or two.

    At at some point your common sense froze and fell off.......
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  3. #2863
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    Jojoba does have a very high VI. The only problems I ran into with it was using too much and it just blowing oil and bullets everywhere in extreme heat, during long strings of fire where the barrel would sizzle spit. It's the only thing other than too much castor oil that I've actually tried that made Felix lube fall apart in the heat.

    I believe that two measuring tablespoons of castor oil per pound of lube is an absolute maximum for hot weather. The SL-68.1.2.3 all have that amount in them. The SL-68.3 has an additional tablespoon per half pound of Maxima K2. If that isn't too slippery in the summer it might prove to be an improvement in the cold, same as Jojoba.

    6661 is a good lube, perhaps and excellent lube, but still doesn't hold up in the heat well enough for me, but very little does.

    Gear

  4. #2864
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    At 25 below I don't care if the lube has any quit in them, I know I do!

    You are truly the man in my book. I can't imagine anyone else WANTING 25 below just to test a lube or two.

    At at some point your common sense froze and fell off.......
    I think it is just how we are 'wired' Brad. Ian mentions 103° in the shade with 85% humidity and THAT gives me chills!!
    Shooting at three digit temps is not fun for me! (A good prairie dog shoot might be an exception!) But I like the bitter cold.... Always have.

    One better keep his common sense about him in full alert playing in -25° below.... It can kill you if you make a bad mistake! I know you know this Brad but our southern friends may not!

    Eutectic

  5. #2865
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    Lots of southerners act like they're going to die at +25, lol

  6. #2866
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    And lots of northerners DO die at 85 F. It's all about what you're used to.

    Gear

  7. #2867
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    I grew up around Port Arthur/Beaumont, have always worked in hot spaces. I can find humor over how people relate to temperature, almost anywhere. One year I was in Japan a couple weeks before Christmas, high 40's low 50's, all the people wearing their arctic parkas thought I was weird running around in a t shirt.

    I'm lucky, temperature is one of the things I'm not very sensitive to. My wife would say I'm insensitive about a lot of things.

  8. #2868
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    +25 sounds pretty good right bout now.
    cold isn't the issue it's the wind.

  9. #2869
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyOnThePaper View Post
    I grew up around Port Arthur/Beaumont, have always worked in hot spaces. I can find humor over how people relate to temperature, almost anywhere.
    Well it can be a small world! I finished my career with Chevron at the old Gulf Cedar Bayou Plant in Baytown! I was the Maintenance/Lubrication Specialist at the new (then) 1796 Polyethylene unit. I also spent a little time over at the Orange Plant by Beaumont that you probably know. Special project to try and downsize a Pre-Poly reactor check valve I invented.
    So I can take heat and humidity! Never learned to like it there except January when it was like a late Spring day! The Texans actually liked me at the end; wanting me to stay. I had graduated in their eyes from the D@#n Yankee I was on arrival. I transferred from Wyoming to there! I guess I had 120 people at my retirement party! They 'roasted' me good! One manager joked with me saying: "Y'all are goin' tah miss this place an those 100 degree days with 100% humidity y'all so hate when the below zero comes Pete!"
    I replied, "Jim.... if every single day for the rest of my life was either -30° below zero or 100° degrees with 100% humidity. My choice would be easy! -30° below zero!"

    Eutectic

  10. #2870
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    My Dad is retired from the Gulf/Chevron Port Arthur plant, like 10 yrs marine warehouse then dock supervisor

  11. #2871
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    And lots of northerners DO die at 85 F. It's all about what you're used to.

    Gear
    Move to Nebraska, we can do 100 and humid or 10 below and windy.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  12. #2872
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    So, Has the Quest Produced Any Clear, Definitive Results?

    I have been following this thread since the first post (below). There has been a lot of discussion. A lot of ideas and observations have been shared.

    But, has the quest produced any results? By results, I mean a recipe that has been tested by several contributors to the thread and found to be a superior lube? If there is a recipe that doesn't require a degree in magic from Hogwarts, or a professional lab, I would definitely be interested.

    Thanksgiving is just around the corner. Even though our representative republic is under attack from within as never before, we still have a lot to be thankful for. And I am. I wish you all a thanks-filled Thanksgiving.

    MichiganMike
    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Some discussions elsewhere recently made me think this topic deserves a thread of it's own, so here goes.

    The mission is to develop a temperature-insensitive boolit lube primarily for hunting rifles with a goal of accuracy on par with the best lube formulas currently available in for temperature extreme, from below freezing to 100+ degree Texas (or anywhere else) heat, and in the temperate zone between the extremes as well. The lube needs to address, specifically, the common phenom of first-shot or "cold barrel" flyers while also being relatively immune to "lube purging" or progressive layering and purging in a barrel, and also be consistent through long strings of shooting and cumulative barrel heat.

    Some lube formulas are excellent at either temperature extreme and some only in between, exhibiting all of the desired properties outlined above, but none that I'm aware of will perform to my satisfaction in all temperture ranges.

    The problem in achieving a universal "wonder lube", from my limited perspective, is twofold: First, the "carrier" in most lube formulas has a narrow range of temperature for ideal performance, and second, very few people, least of all me, seem to have a good grasp of exactly what a boolit lube actually DOES. It's very difficult to manipulate a substance for certain attributes when one doesn't know exactly what mechanisms are at play which affect the outcome. This thread is intended to explore these mechanisms and hopefully lead to not only a better understanding of current formulas, but perhaps to better formulas themselves.

    I'd like to postulate on the properties of a good boolit lube and the things that do work to achieve them, along with some theorizing of what lube is really doing. This is not presented as absolute fact, but only as a sort of summary of my own understanding of what's going on with boolit lube.

    I believe that a boolit lube does two basic things to assist a cast boolit from a piece of fixed ammunition to its target: It provides a delicate and dynamic gas seal between the boolit and the barrel, thus preventing lead deposits from microscopic (or worse) powder gas leaks and the resulting gas abrasion of the boolit. The lube also acts as a film lubricant, preventing metal-to-metal contact in the rifle's bore. This last may appear simple, but lots of shooting with various lube formulas and bore conditions has proven to me that the surface upon which a boolit rides is absolutely critical to accuracy, and the ability of a lube to leave a consistent bore condition under extreme conditions and through long strings of firing is a key attribute of a good lube.

    So, from cartridge case to target a lube must seal the bore like engine oil seals compression in a reciprocating engine, it must provide a consistent runway surface (for consistent friction), and it must either remain in the grooves all the way to the target or leave the boolit immediately and completely upon muzzle exit once its job in the barrel is completed so it doesn't affect the balance of the boolit on the free path to the target.

    In order to do this, a boolit lube must:
    1. Have the correct viscosity to match the pressure sealing requirements of a given load and alloy,
    2. Have the correct amount of "drag" each shot, which may be a factor of both viscosity and lubricity,
    3. Have the correct lubricity to maintain consistent bore surface,
    4 Maintain the correct viscosity and lubricity through temperature extremes of both atmosphere, chamber, and barrel,
    5. Have enough tack to stick to a boolit during handling, storage, and loading,
    6. Not have so much tack that it only partially jettisons in flight.
    7. Some other things that strike me as important are the ability of a lube to be left in a barrel without danger of corrosion, no "weeping" of oils in the heat to contaminate powder, no bad reaction with the cartridge brass during long-term storage, immunity to humidity, and compatibility with standard lube application equipment.

    Traditionally, it seems that the trend in recipes has been to start with a "carrier" which is a foundation for the lube, usually a wax of some sort, which will absorb lubricating oils within its structure like a sponge and deliver them to the barrel while providing some substance to the liquid oils such that they can be installed in the grooves. This "substance" is the overall viscosity which also seems to aid the "stop leak" attributes so necessary to a good lube formula. Other things are added to modify the properties of these two general classes of lube ingredients or to add desireable properties of their own, such as graphite, carnauba wax, moly disulfide, etc. Some additives, like metal or organic soaps, are almost a third class unto themselves that I would call "binders". The various Aloxes and many EP greases contain calcium soaps, and the lithium soaps also make the greases sometimes used in lubes a carrier/lube combination unto themselves. Stearates also apply to this class, sodium stearate and stearic acid come to mind, there are others. These soaps provide lubricating properties of their own, and also can serve to bind lube ingredients together in a robust, homogenous mix.

    The big issue for me has been to get all the properties of the 1-7 list in a lube with the commonly used and understood lube ingredients, and here's where the discussion gets interesting. What does each ingredient do, what is the failure point, how does it fail, and how can a formula be put together that will offer better all-season performance than the usual suspects of lube recipes?

    Let that soak in for a minute and I'll start another post with a discussion of some formulas I use and why I think they work, and why they have limits.

    Gear

  13. #2873
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    I'll step in it and summarize what it looks like from my perspective.

    Several lubes have met the challenge down to some number of degrees below zero F.

    Several lubes have met the challenge to some number of degrees above 90 F. IMO, it ain't extreme until you're at 105 F or above, but looks like only two or three of us ever linger out in the summer mornings beyond 100 F. That can be 10 a.m. here sometimes.

    I *believe* that two or three lubes appeared to meet both temperature extremes, but they failed at higher velocities or higher pressures in the warm. The Three Amigos can summarize that if they want and you don't want to do a narrow search. I remember it as being a problem with too much sodium stearate (soap, like Ivory) causing some nasty-hard bore fouling in rifles.

    If you limit it to handguns only, 14-inch barrels or less, and excluding traditionally rifle calibers, our intrepid adventurers have probably found at least three and maybe even a half-dozen "Extreme" lubes.

    I suspect that the SL-68 line tested and passed during the summer (Sorry, I don't have a rifle and boolit combo capable of testing above 100 F. My 411413 or whatever is no good above 1600 fps or so, and the pretty accurate AR I had access to moved out.), and is now being evaluated for the cold side of life.

    So I continue to wait, NOT holding my breath, with what I believe is a reasonable hope that the final word on SL-68 and maybe a tweak or two on Satan's Lube this winter could bring not one, but two lube formulations to the table as satisfying the demands of the Quest.

  14. #2874
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    Starmetal Lube is still king. SL-68 has done almost as well in 100+F at well over 2500 fps in a .30 caliber, and with the barrel so hot it would sizzle spit the groups still held up. Recently, Eutectic tested both genuine Starmtal lube and my SL-68 (an attempt to duplicate Starmetal lube) in minus 7 degree temps and both passed with flying colors.

    357Maximum's 6661 "Satan's lube" is tough to beat in all but the hottest weather.

    Felix lube is still great for all but cold weather.

    TnT lube works really well in just about everything IF your loads and alloy are built for maximum obturation and pressures remain below about 30,000PSI. If a compacting buffer is used, there is no limit.

    Several of us have been steadily working off-grid on this quest for over a year, mostly trying to duplicate the performance of Starmetal lube with a repeatable formula.

    So far it looks like Extreme Bullet Lube will contain a high percentage of microcrystalline wax, possibly some high melt-point paraffin wax, between 5 and 30% Ivory soap, some mineral (paraffin) oil in the 100-500sus viscosity range, and a small amount (less than 2%) of either jojoba oil, castor oil, or polyolester oil.

    Gear

  15. #2875
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    Wait a minute

  16. #2876
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post

    So far it looks like Extreme Bullet Lube will contain a high percentage of microcrystalline wax, possibly some high melt-point paraffin wax, between 5 and 30% Ivory soap, some mineral (paraffin) oil in the 100-500sus viscosity range, and a small amount (less than 2%) of either jojoba oil, castor oil, or polyolester oil.

    Gear
    That sounds like MML + ivory

  17. #2877
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Starmetal Lube is still king.
    Gear
    It is my understanding that "Starlube" is unrepeatable because (one/some?) part of the ingredients are of unknown composition that is no longer made or sold. (Can't be sent to the lab?). Is this correct?
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

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  18. #2878
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    It CAN be sent to a lab, but at what cost?

    It has been over 25 years since I worked in an analytical lab but I bet it would well over 1K to have a sample tested for exact composition. It isn't as simple as it looks on TV.
    Last edited by btroj; 11-21-2014 at 09:53 AM.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  19. #2879
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    Ok, thats cool, I seem to remember that members have done it before. The main point of my question is that I am given to understand that the (primary?) ingredient is unobtainium. Maybe 45 2.1 can shed some light here,,,,,
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  20. #2880
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    Unobtanium is what it seems to be. Work is ongoing to figure out a decent replacement for the wax.
    I think Gear is close to having a good alternate. Eutectic is extreme cold weather testing a few lubes to see how 20 below cripples them.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check