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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #2061
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    Yup, a good lube will work in any amount in any style groove at any pressure. The soft, soap lubes do that, that's one thing I've been testing. I have Keith-style .30 caliber and .45 caliber boolits, as well as multigroove designs including Lee and Lyman Loverins. They all work with the soap lubes.

    In the original post of this thread I outlined the seven functions of a good lube, which has been modified and improved as we gain a better understanding. It all boils down to lubricity and viscosity, like we said in the beginning. Thing is, we've learned that the viscosity must change rapidly under pressure and the lubricity matters most in the residuals. Now we're trying to figure out how to do that last thing, and after that we should have it licked.

    I also have a feeling that once we get the details worked out, that PG lube might be made to do the same thing or better. It's a substance with a set of qualities we're after, what it's made of exactly doesn't matter much.

    Gear

  2. #2062
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    [\QUOTE]I want acceptable accuracy over a wide range of temps. It need not be the most accurate under all conditions but I want to know the first shot will be on target at any temp, clean barrel or fouled.[/QUOTE]

    Yes this would be a nice thing to find.
    Rich

  3. #2063
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Ok team, time to drag the updated version of the "Big Freakin' X-mas Lube Wish List" over here from the other thread so we can re-group.

    1. Must be temperature insensitive. The lube must be able to stand long strings of shooting in the heat without deteriorating groups, and must have minimal "cold barrel" characteristics, keeping POI constant to 1 MOA through starts and stops. Ambients of 105F to ZeroF seems reasonable to me.

    2. Must be velocity insensitive. To me, this means SOFT, I want the lube to work in .45 Colt revolvers at Cowboy Action velocities as well as extremely high velocities in rifles with fast twists where high pressure and high land force is the norm. I'm going to say 700 fps from .30-45 caliber is a good bench mark for the low end, and the high end will be whatever your loading skills can be. Many cast shooters don't care to get above 16-1800 fps with accuracy in .30 caliber (for example), but some will, and those who shoot at very high velocity need this lube to NOT be the limiting factor. For those shooting at milder velocities, "Extreme Lube" would still offer all the other advantages outlined here, which is more than 95% of the formulas I've tried will do.

    3. Must be insensitive to barrel surface finish. Some guns have rough bores, some pitted bores, some highly polished. This affects lube performance greatly, but some recent work has proven that a lube can be formulated for both.

    4. Must work with conventional lube-sizing equipment. I do not consider compatibility with the pan-lube technique a requirement for the lube, but some may. My gut tells me a truly "Extreme" lube won't melt easily below the smoke point of most waxes. Some of the high melt-point lubes can be poured into stick moulds when they are made, since they aren't easily remelted and poured into sizers.

    5. Must work with a variety of lube groove designs from Loverin to Lee to Keith to Silhouette styles. This is all about viscosity, lubricity, being cohesive, and having the right tack. The biggest issue to achieving this is being able to do it across a wide temperature range. Edit to add that we want the lube to be minimally sensitive to number of grooves lubed on a multi-groove boolit, although a Loverin boolit with seven grooves lubed is likely to shoot differently than it would with only the space just above the gas check lubed no matter the formula, just to give an extreme example. If you lube them all the same for the same gun, it doesn't matter.

    6. Must be storage and handling friendly. Must not corrode brass or equipment, must stay in the grooves during handling, and must not leak into the powder when subjected to 160F (direct summer sunlight in some climates).

    7. Must be able to tolerate being blown out of the groove and run over by the boolit in the bore. This is often what happens with fast pressure curves and sloppy boolit fit. Some lubes excel at this, others only work in "benchrest" situations where fit tolerance is less than half a thousandth. Difficult to establish a test standard for this one since it's so subjective, but a group of people testing one formula in a variety of guns can come to a consensus.

    8. Must leave consistent bore fouling, i.e. satisfy Eutectic's Consistency Of Residuals Encountered (CORE) concept. This is key to hunting accuracy and multi-temp performance. My personal standard for this is two, ten-shot groups fired in succession starting from a clean barrel compared to two more, ten-shot successive groups fired from one day to a week later with NO BARREL CLEANING. A second requirement is to be able to maintain accuracy for at least 500 rounds between major cleanings. Some lube ingredients, in my experience, cannot do this. Alox 350 is one, we think due to calcium buildup in the bore. Lubes with too much Molybdenum disulphide can have the same disadvantage. It goes without saying that the lube formula, as a single factor, must not promote lead fouling of the bore.

    9. Must not affect accuracy by "clinging" to the boolit after it exits the gun. I call it "lube jettison", and use point-blank tests where I shoot through cardboard to observe the spatter pattern, condition, and quantity. I want all the lube gone from the boolit within two full boolit revolutions post-muzzle.

    10. Must be relatively non-toxic. No Teflon or chlorine/flourine produced in decomposition, or similar hazards.

    11. Must be able to make the lube from readily obtainable ingredients, which excludes such things as must normally be purchased by the boxcar load or drum, or by special permit.

    12. As an added bonus, it would be nice if the lube were compatible with black powder as well as smokeless, even though moisture content requirements are typically contradictory.

    An important note: No lube can overcome poor fit, unsuitable boolit design, or poor loading techniques. Much of what accounts for "good" or "bad" lube formulations involves the guns and ammunition themselves, not so much the lube formula. Some lubes DO tolerate less-than-ideal conditions than others, but lube alone won't make your rifle shoot.

    **What a good lube WILL do is be transparant, in that is doesn't DETRACT from the accuracy potential that the handloader builds into a given gun/ammo system.**

    Gear

    Thought I'd bump this one again for those who may have missed it back around post 1350.

    HAMISH: Note #5 and #7, that addresses what you brought up, as well as the last note. We're working on it!

    Rich: That's #1 on our list. Unfortunately, it may be the last one we satisfy while satisfying the other requirements. There are plenty of lubes that will work in 2/3 of the temperature spread of a given region and deliver excellent accuracy including the first shot, but not do it all, or if there are any that cover all the bases I haven't found one yet except for possibly Starmetal lube. Starmetal's did well in one test at minus 4 F. and I know does as well or better than anything I've ever tried at 105 F. in numerous guns. That's including a test at a shade over 2600 fps and 200K rpm.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 04-02-2013 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #2064
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    Synthetic Spermaceti Wax ( $60 a lb on the internet) and a hard coconut base soap like Kirks Castile to act as the carrier for the lube. You would have to experiment with the mixture but this is the basis for the lubes that Harry Pope favored in the late 19th Century. I took several bars of Kirk's Coco Castile with me to Iraq in 2004 / 2005. It never melted or got too soft in 130 F heat.

    Allox Bee's wax is too sticky and the best lubes are too hard to pump through a lubersizer pump without a heater. There is the rub… can the wonder lube be applied to the bullet without the mess of pan lubing?

    It seems to me that casting the bullet .002 over grove diameter, keeping the bullet base up in the case neck and using a gas check is the best way to prevent gas cutting and thus sealing the bore. That leaves the lube to provide a film of friction seduction between the lead projectile and the steal barrel.

    The first shot will always be a challenge because the nose of the bullet and the bullets first land are in front of the first grease grove. I don’t lube my barrels before the first shoot and I have never seen it done outside a Schuetzen match.

  5. #2065
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I don't lube my barrel before the first shot either but I often shoot they a fouled bore.
    Many don't clean every outing

  6. #2066
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    When I clean my gun barrel, the last thing I do is put some of the bullet lube on a patch and push it through the rifles bore.

    The only thing missing is the powder and primer residue for the first shot.

  7. #2067
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    Seabee:
    the butters and such that are hard and favorable in the heat have a drop off in the cold where they tend to separate.
    it we just wanted a lube to go from 50-f through 130-f this thread would have made it about 1 post.
    well probably 2 the question and the answer.
    if we just wanted a lube that done from 50 down to -10 it would have lasted the same 2 posts.
    if we wanted to use multiple lubes to hone in on the best accuracy in different temperature windows it would have lasted about 50 posts.

    making lube is easy, even from just stuff in the garage and kitchen.
    it's even acceptable from March through October on nice day's around here.

    it's those other 4 months from November to February,
    and June [when my heater is still on] through September where Gear lives that makes this a problem.

  8. #2068
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    So True, Run!

    I actually looked really, really hard at the huge stack of Kirk's soap at my local hardware store. After a while I decided the coconut oil and vitamin E weren't going to survive the melting process of the sodium stearate and passed on it.

    Gear

  9. #2069
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    I recall that Gear posted the part number for the goo somewhere but I didn't write it down. They came up with the blue label. I was so disappointed, now I have to wait another two days.

    O'Reilly Auto Parts, LBG 19250.

    EW

  10. #2070
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    the blue is not on the no list either.
    it has a similar melt point to Vaseline, and would make a softer lube without the other base oils.
    I have been looking the blue over as a replacement for some of the green and the other oils we have been using.
    25% I have thought would be a good start [with maybe a tbs of mineral oil]
    in a 4/4/4oz recipe.

  11. #2071
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    I have spent a bit of time pondering the use of the blue formula. I wonder if the lower melt point stuff would reduce the need for mineral oil in the formula, or at least reduce it.
    Makes me wonder what the difference in ingredients is

  12. #2072
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    The blue has a lower melt point, somewhere around 115F IIRC, which doesn't at all negate it as an ingredient. The green, 130 melt point stuff I've been using for the lube tests doesn't have a lot of the "melted cheese" or "honey" stringiness to it, and some of that quality could help. Actually, adding about 1/4 of regular white Vaseline to the green seems to help it flow, but doesn't add any film strength to it at all.

    Go ahead and use the blue stuff, it's still a blend of paraffinic oils (minus the anti-corrosion additive in the green), and still does basically the same thing, only it will make the lube soften slightly more at a lower temperature. Since we're relying on the soap to do triple duty (lube, binder, and carrier), it sort of takes care of any sofening tendency of the assembly goo. The goo is there primarily to make the lube soft enough to use without making it too slippery. Run calls it a "middle modifier" because like other good plasticizers it makes the harder carriers softer and allows the use of less, and thus more controllable, specialized lubricating oils.

    Think of the Assemblee Goo as the old, lightly-refined, yellow Vaseline that we can't get easily anymore.

    Gear

  13. #2073
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    I have spent a bit of time pondering the use of the blue formula. I wonder if the lower melt point stuff would reduce the need for mineral oil in the formula, or at least reduce it.
    Makes me wonder what the difference in ingredients is
    I don't know exactly, but I'm betting it's just lighter, shorter-chain paraffin oils. If you're adding mineral oil to soften it, then I'd say the blue might be better, or even a 50/50 mix. It would probably be better than adding Vaseline.

    One point to bring up is not all the transmission assembly lubricants are the same, the Trans Jel product and I think on other have Napthenic oils in them, similar to most engine oils, gear oils, and chassis grease. For some reason those types of oils haven't been the best in boolit lubes, at least in large enough percentages to be used as the "middle modifiers" or plasticizers. Somebody may eventually prove that wrong and that it's some other quality of lubes containing high napthenic oil percentages that causes the hot-purge and cold-start issues, but right now it's the nature of the oils and how they act under pressure that I'm going with and I am avoiding them. Remember, paraffinic oils don't "lubricate" as well, and are out of fashion in today's high-performance lubrication applications, and that might just be the quality we want for SOFTENING boolit lube, while what little lubricating oil the lube really needs to work can be added as the low-viscosity modifiers in controlled amounts.

    Gear

  14. #2074
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    I have no desire to try a different brand. We have something that seems to be working and I don't fix what isn't broken!
    I think a bit of mineral oil works fine to adjust the final stiffness of the lube. It can prevent the dryness that paraffin brings, it also seems to help the K2 get along with paraffin.

    I still need to look into getting some of the castor base Maxima 2 stroke oil. Can't hurt to give it a go.

  15. #2075
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    Hmm. Maybe I need to make a batch of SL-62.2 with the .2 being a tablespoon of Vaseline subbed for same amount of green AG. Remember how I mentioned the SL-62 (.1) with the tablespoon of K2 ester seemed even more dry than with no oils whatsoever? If a lighter mineral oil brings out the oilyiness of the K2 then that might be all that's needed, or maybe I'll try some with a bunch more K2. It's been raining the past two days (FINALLY!!!!) and will be for another so I can't test after work right now.

    Next tests will be with the SL-61 (soap, AG, beeswax, mineral, castor) mixed 50-50 with SL-62 (equal soap, AG, Gulf wax) and then I'm wanting to explore more of the paraffin-based stuff. I want more of those one-hole groups, dadgummit! I know I'm dancing around perfection in at least that one rifle, just have to figure out how to maintain it.

    Gear

  16. #2076
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    Isn't it amazing how a taste of success makes you hunger for more?
    I haven't tried exchanging Vaseline for AG yet. I have though about using Vaseline in place of the mineral oil. Might give a slightly firmer mix yet still help keep the K2 and paraffin together and happy.
    If weather allows I will shoot next week. This time of year who knows what the weather will be. I sure don't.

  17. #2077
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    Get the smallest amount of K2 for a trial, assuming you have zero experience with it. Reason: The stuff is alcohol ready, meaning it is meant to mix with that grade of gasoline. Therefore, I would try it first with beeswax and microwax separately, and leave all other components out like making a speed green. Play around with the mix before any gun use, i.e., reheat, recool, rewindow on paper, ice water, etc. If the sample is stable and remains soft, then add the stearate for appropriate dryness. The real advantage of speed green is the two feeds used to make something worthwhile. ... felix
    Last edited by felix; 04-03-2013 at 10:09 AM.
    felix

  18. #2078
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    Runfiverrun,

    I am an Engineer/Machinist not a chemist.... I looked into my library on the subject and found these components listed as ingredients for lube and thought I would SHARE them in this forum. I proposed no formula or offered any credentials as a lube expert. Like lots of bullet casters I use off the shelf lube sticks that fit my lubresizer. I don’t expect to take my old Krag to the Artic to shoot sperm whales or to Africa to kill rhinos. I am just a middle age guy that likes to shoot old rifles, cast my own bullets and tinker with a 75 year old South Bend lathe in my basement.

    If this is a forum for pedantic Chemical Engineers who want to bloviate about materials and process unobtainable or unfathomable to a broad spectrum of shooters…well maybe I am in the wrong place.

    Here, I will save you the trouble…… SSSSSIIIIGGGGHHHH

  19. #2079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabee1960 View Post
    Runfiverrun,

    I am an Engineer/Machinist not a chemist.... I looked into my library on the subject and found these components listed as ingredients for lube and thought I would SHARE them in this forum. I proposed no formula or offered any credentials as a lube expert. Like lots of bullet casters I use off the shelf lube sticks that fit my lubresizer. I don’t expect to take my old Krag to the Artic to shoot sperm whales or to Africa to kill rhinos. I am just a middle age guy that likes to shoot old rifles, cast my own bullets and tinker with a 75 year old South Bend lathe in my basement.

    If this is a forum for pedantic Chemical Engineers who want to bloviate about materials and process unobtainable or unfathomable to a broad spectrum of shooters…well maybe I am in the wrong place.

    Here, I will save you the trouble…… SSSSSIIIIGGGGHHHH

    I fail to see how/why RFR's comments deserve a statement like this?

  20. #2080
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    R5R is trying to contribute, whereas SB is knowingly confused in his old age and realizes he has to look in his rear-view mirror for his expertise. I suspect it is only a matter of time until we all reach that state. I am just about there myself. ... felix
    Last edited by felix; 04-03-2013 at 11:37 AM.
    felix

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check