"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, I am hardly an expert on MML but my understanding is that Mike uses mostly microwax to make it, wi a bit o beeswax to keep it from having such a sharp melt point.

MML has twice as much plain ol' canning paraffin as BW-430 and three times more beeswax than micro. Also, the grease called for is Naphthenic based.

MJ

P.S. Actually, I think Naphthenic is incorrect and it is indeed less common than mineral oil based lithium greases, sorry about that!

[Marlin Junky]

I'm going to continue to flail through the lubricity additive spectrum and keep playing with different waxes. This has gotten so "cutting edge" that there just doesn't seem to be any reference material to help out, it's down to just picking waxes and oils that seem like they'd work and wringing them out systematically.

Gear

Well, looks like you've got a hobby there. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, Ian but it sounds like you wanna start all over again... 100 pages not enough fer ya?

Have you had a chance to talk with a chemical engineer (or a reasonable facsimile) at BW yet? Why not initially develop a carrier of perhaps three waxes and shoot it a hundred or so times to see how it performs without your "lubricity additive"? You'll need to throttle back the initial testing with Unique or 2400 instead of setting your goal at somewhat over 2000 fps right out of the gate. After which, you can add a soapy, soapy grease to take the lube to light speed and beyond. It wouldn't be the end of the world if one needed to add a dab more grease to their lube during the dead of winter on top of the Continental Divide vs. August in the desert. With warmer weather just around the corner, testing just the lube base/carrier at lower speed should be fun.

MJ

[btroj]

A wax heavy lube? Isn't that called Carnuba Red?
It may be great in summer heat but I tell you what, CR gives cold barrel flyers at temps below 50 degrees.

I will just keep fiddling with what I think is the right way.
Others are welcome to do as they chose, be sure to let us know how your testing turns out MJ.

[Doc Highwall]

I bought some of Lars 2700 to try in the high heat conditions this summer like 60 degrees and up till I cannot stand it.

[Marlin Junky]

A wax heavy lube? Isn't that called Carnuba Red?
It may be great in summer heat but I tell you what, CR gives cold barrel flyers at temps below 50 degrees.

Personally, I don't like Carnauba. Unfortunately, I still have 4 pounds of my 5 pound purchase of T3 made some time ago. Yes, it is for sale or trade.

My idea is high temp paraffin, beeswax and a bit of microcrystalline wax for additional flex... but not too much micro due to its naphthenic hydrocarbon content and using that wax base alone as a lower velocity lube. I'd also like to test that combo against 160F paraffin/beeswax and ??? wax to see how it performs at lower velocities in the heat of summer. The point is, ya gotta start with an "Extreme" carrier before you can find uber-lube.

MJ

P.S. Here's an idea fer ya:

I remember much earlier, talk of poly-whatever ingredients was going around and I was wondering if anyone has tried melting a plastic shopping bag into paraffin. I'm just crazy enough to try it.

[btroj]

The soap, wax, and Tranny too ARE the carrier, not just the wax.

The soap seconds as a grease forming agent. The Goo is also the mid viscosity modifier. The wax also help lubricate. The only single tasker we have is the oil, except the mineral oil, it helps form the grease and also helps modify the viscosity of the entire lube.

We need to look at the lube as a whole, not as Individual players.

[geargnasher]

The soap, wax, and Tranny too ARE the carrier, not just the wax.

The soap seconds as a grease forming agent. The Goo is also the mid viscosity modifier. The wax also help lubricate. The only single tasker we have is the oil, except the mineral oil, it helps form the grease and also helps modify the viscosity of the entire lube.

We need to look at the lube as a whole, not as Individual players.

Ya, +1 to all of that, Brad.

Gear

[runfiverun]

you beat me to it.


poly glycol is a very good extreme lube, probably as good as the soap lube.
maybe better.
it is just about impossible to deal with at home.
I doubt you can even make it [or a facsimile] with home type tooling.

you can however get poly ethylene glycol in several strand lengths to act as a long strand binder.
I would recommend you start with peg-15 or peg-20 it comes as a solid wax and can be melted pretty easily.
the peg-20 is a common binding agent in electro ceramics.
I did work out a way to add poly-E's to a lube.
I even have about 20 boolits kicking around that are tumble lubed in a poly type lube.
some of this is what lead to the poly-butene additions about 12-50 pages back.

[btroj]

PEG I am familiar with. We use it for suppositories. Easy to mix different molecular weights to get a substance that melts at body temp. I never thought about it in a lube like this. I did try it straight as a BP lube on some minis many years ago. Didn't work so well. Too soft, poor lubricating ability. It did clean up easily.

[geargnasher]

Ok, add veggy glycerin and sodium stearate to the PEG or BP lube. The SS should dissolve at low heat due to the water-soluble nature of the other ingredients (what's the term for that, hydrophillic or some such?) We've talked about this before with regard to the various veggie gums as potential oil gellants. Still interesting.

Wasn't the polyglycol involved in the infamous late-night flaming mess? IIRC that stuff had no drop point but was soft enough (or firm enough, depending on how you look at it) for a lube base. How's the film strength of Polyglycol stuff?

Gear

[btroj]

Yep, hydrophilic is the word.
PEG would mix readily with stearates as it is water soluble. How the stearate would affect melt point is hard to say.
I am not sure if oils would mix well with the PEG or not. Interesting idea.
My big fear is the fact this stuff would be very hygroscopic. Don't know if I want it in my barrel of it might rain or was really humid. A wax might mitigate this as it would help seal the surface to prevent water penetration.

So many neat chemicals, so little time.

[geargnasher]

I was speaking strictly in terms of black powder lube with that mix. The soap would be there more as an emulsifier/binder between the glycols and oils/waxes, and maybe boost the temp stability. Murphy's oil soap is a common BP lube ingredient for the emulsification and lube properties. All those lubes are hygroscopic as all get-out, intentionally so because water keeps the lube fouling soft so you don't have to swab the bore between every shot to maintain accuracy. It's the C.O.R.E. thing again, on a grand scale in the instance of black powder.

Gear

[runfiverun]

yeah the poly glycol was the flaming plastic 3.am dash through a snowstorm.
I was attempting to mix it.
it was also involved in the infamous adding stearated grease to it adventure which made a sticky ball of goop in between my fingers.

the plain "J" lube does work very well in lots of my rifles, I am still shooting it.
it just isn't modifiable.

it did help me realize that what a lube does in the barrel and upon exit and what it leaves behind are the deciding factors on good versus bad lubes.

[btroj]

I don't need that kind of excitement, my spouse would quickly put her foot down. Well, or up depending upon where she put it.

[Marlin Junky]

BTW,

Has anyone here tested any of their Extreme lubes against LBT Soft Blue?

MJ

[btroj]

Not me. Never have used any LBT lubes.
Don't plan to buy any just to compare.

You volunteering MJ?

[runfiverun]

you seen one marine calcium soap based lube you seen em all.
there might be a reason there are two versions hmmm.

[runfiverun]

the soft is the hard modified with Vaseline btw.
some people have access to university's and stuff.
how do you think bullshops bullplate got identified?

you know we sit up late at night and read and do research and junk right?
the story's about smoking plastic and junk don't just happen, you have to be trying things.

[btroj]

Be sure to let us know how your testing goes. 10 sticks should give you a good comparison.

Which formula of soap lube do you plan to test it against?

And Run, you mean lube development and testing isn't done online? You actually shoot this stuff? I gotta try that sometime.

[runfiverun]

yeah modifying things and trying them takes a little time away from the computer.
unfortunately.
sometimes I miss DR.WHO because of it too.